Anglo-Celtic Dreaming?

There’s been some discussion of my reference to Anglo-Celts on my previous post about sectarianism and history where I wrote:

One of the great right-wing myths is that Australia was some sort of Anglo-Celtic homogenous country prior to Calwell’s post-war immigration programme. Not true. Simply false. Ask the descendants in Queensland of South Sea Islanders, the Chinese diaspora, the Jewish community, and the Germans.

Perhaps some clarification is in order. It depends on how you define “homogenous” which as I suggested implicitly, is a very loaded and politically charged term. Certainly in some states there was more ethnic diversity than others. And at different times – the White Australia Policy was itself a response to a growing Asian and South Sea Islander population – and as importantly to fear of its further increase. I think the politically salient nostalgia often overlooks this – as if there was never concern about the outpost of Empire under the Southern Skies maintaining its purported “homogeneity”. Ethnicity is not something purely defined by descent – it’s as much to do with culture and perhaps most importantly identification. Concepts of ethnicity and the social cleavages it creates are highly historically variable (and often very quickly so). In Nineteenth Century Australia, for instance, much conflict existed between British born people (the majority for many decades) and “native born” Australians – often simply referred to as “Australians”. Hence the Australian Nativist League and similar organisations which complained about domination of the professions and politics by Britishers. Mostly, this is forgotten now and the Australian minority vs. British majority distinction makes no sense in our society. Similarly, as I’ve argued here and earlier at Troppo, the term “Anglo-Celtic”, just like “Judaeo-Christian”, is of recent coinage and only started to have meaning after the sectarian conflicts between Irish Catholics and British Protestants lost salience – perhaps partly in the face of large scale non-British immigration, which produced another outgroup of “New Australians”. There may well be those who identify as Anglo-Celtic now but there would have been very few 50 years ago given the social and class cleavages reinforced by the Church’s ban on mixed marriages. And the identity itself didn’t exist.

I remain convinced that discussion of an “Anglo-Celtic” ethnicity and culture, whether consciously or not, is motivated largely by a conservative desire to protect the homogeneity that is wrongly identified with an Australian identity.

Elsewhere: More on imperialism, ethnicity and power at m c gregg’s place.


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202 responses to “Anglo-Celtic Dreaming?”

  1. cs

    It’s the ‘Anglo’ bit I don’t like. Where do these goddam Anglo’s get off? And since when did we Celts agree to go into some hyphenated gig with them? Just another bunch of invaders, looking for street cred.

  2. cs

    It’s the ‘Anglo’ bit I don’t like. Where do these goddam Anglo’s get off? And since when did we Celts agree to go into some hyphenated gig with them? Just another bunch of invaders, looking for street cred.

  3. Kim

    Yeah!

    I’m a mixture of Portuguese, Marrano (Spanish converted/undercover Jews) and American Scottish Catholic. What does that make me? Seems like it’s just another way for white folks from “old Aussie” backgrounds to oppose multiculturalism half the time.

  4. Kim

    Yeah!

    I’m a mixture of Portuguese, Marrano (Spanish converted/undercover Jews) and American Scottish Catholic. What does that make me? Seems like it’s just another way for white folks from “old Aussie” backgrounds to oppose multiculturalism half the time.

  5. Andrew Norton

    I doubt ‘Anglo-Celtic’ will catch on in any meaningful sense. I doubt many people who can trace their ancestry in ways that could justify the label even perceive themselves as having an “ethnic” identity, much less one that is culturally or politically significant. Though I have not seen the data myself, someone who did research on public opinion on multiculturalism told me they had a lot of trouble getting the data they wanted on background, because when they asked about ethnicity or ancestry lots of people would give answers like ‘Australian’ or even the state in which they lived.

  6. Andrew Norton

    I doubt ‘Anglo-Celtic’ will catch on in any meaningful sense. I doubt many people who can trace their ancestry in ways that could justify the label even perceive themselves as having an “ethnic” identity, much less one that is culturally or politically significant. Though I have not seen the data myself, someone who did research on public opinion on multiculturalism told me they had a lot of trouble getting the data they wanted on background, because when they asked about ethnicity or ancestry lots of people would give answers like ‘Australian’ or even the state in which they lived.

  7. Jason Soon

    well, before the term ‘Anglosphere’ caught on, I used to refer to Australia, US, NZ, UK and Canada (i.e. the societies I most identified with liberal individualism)as Anglo-Celtic because I thought Anglo-Saxon was too narrow. Didn’t quite realise I was walking into a minefield in doing so. How would you describe those polities which have so much in common and more so than each does with contintental Europe?

  8. Jason Soon

    well, before the term ‘Anglosphere’ caught on, I used to refer to Australia, US, NZ, UK and Canada (i.e. the societies I most identified with liberal individualism)as Anglo-Celtic because I thought Anglo-Saxon was too narrow. Didn’t quite realise I was walking into a minefield in doing so. How would you describe those polities which have so much in common and more so than each does with contintental Europe?

  9. Jason Soon

    btw i see CS is raring to paint his face, wear a kilt and holler like Mel Gibson 🙂

  10. Jason Soon

    btw i see CS is raring to paint his face, wear a kilt and holler like Mel Gibson 🙂

  11. Fyodor

    Anglo-Celtic is a much better description than Anglo-Saxon, based purely on the miscegenation of the people inhabiting the British Isles. When assorted Angles, Saxons and Jutes invaded Britain, they didn’t replace the existing Romano-Celtic population. Likewise, successive waves of Norse, English, Welsh and Scottish invasions of Ireland make a mockery of any claims the Irish have to ethnic purity. They’re all mongrels, and Anglo-Celtic’s a good a term as any.

    BTW, the William Wallace [William is a Germanic name; Wallace = Welsh] character played by Mel Gibson in Braveheart was a lowlander, and thus spoke an English dialect and was ethnically closer to the English he was fighting than the Rob Roy Celtic fantasy you saw in the movie.

  12. Fyodor

    Anglo-Celtic is a much better description than Anglo-Saxon, based purely on the miscegenation of the people inhabiting the British Isles. When assorted Angles, Saxons and Jutes invaded Britain, they didn’t replace the existing Romano-Celtic population. Likewise, successive waves of Norse, English, Welsh and Scottish invasions of Ireland make a mockery of any claims the Irish have to ethnic purity. They’re all mongrels, and Anglo-Celtic’s a good a term as any.

    BTW, the William Wallace [William is a Germanic name; Wallace = Welsh] character played by Mel Gibson in Braveheart was a lowlander, and thus spoke an English dialect and was ethnically closer to the English he was fighting than the Rob Roy Celtic fantasy you saw in the movie.

  13. Amanda

    In my experience, people simply use “Anglo Celtic” or “Anglo Saxon” or just “Anglo” as a simple descriptive term, for a background of UK origins. Celts are fashionable, Saxons are not, everybody wants to have some Irish in ’em. In everyday use I image that is the main motivation behind the change.

  14. Amanda

    In my experience, people simply use “Anglo Celtic” or “Anglo Saxon” or just “Anglo” as a simple descriptive term, for a background of UK origins. Celts are fashionable, Saxons are not, everybody wants to have some Irish in ’em. In everyday use I image that is the main motivation behind the change.

  15. Geoff Honnor

    Anglo-Celtic simply refers to people whose origins lie in what’s now the United Kingdom and Ireland. It’s currency is entirely a product of multiculturalism, offering as it does, a handy cultural-origin delineation. It’s perjorative associations are also directly related to multiculturalism whose meta- narrative is basically Anglo-Celtic = bad, over-privileged, illegitimate and meat and 2 veg versus non Anglo-Celtic = exotic, refreshing, great cheekbones,
    rich cultural traditions and fascinating cuisine.

  16. Geoff Honnor

    Anglo-Celtic simply refers to people whose origins lie in what’s now the United Kingdom and Ireland. It’s currency is entirely a product of multiculturalism, offering as it does, a handy cultural-origin delineation. It’s perjorative associations are also directly related to multiculturalism whose meta- narrative is basically Anglo-Celtic = bad, over-privileged, illegitimate and meat and 2 veg versus non Anglo-Celtic = exotic, refreshing, great cheekbones,
    rich cultural traditions and fascinating cuisine.

  17. Mark

    Andrew, your point is well made. I’ve written “Australian” on forms. This is another reason why I suspect that “Anglo-Celtic” is just a term that attempts to come to terms with multiculturalism, rather than a genuine identity.

    Of course, people from the dominant ethnic group often don’t see themselves as being “ethnic” at all – just “Australian” (as opposed to those “ethnics”).

    Paul Keating actually exemplified that in his multicultural rhetoric if you read him closely – there was always a “we” who gracefully allowed “them” to open restaurants and contribute to our place in the global economy etc.

  18. Mark

    Andrew, your point is well made. I’ve written “Australian” on forms. This is another reason why I suspect that “Anglo-Celtic” is just a term that attempts to come to terms with multiculturalism, rather than a genuine identity.

    Of course, people from the dominant ethnic group often don’t see themselves as being “ethnic” at all – just “Australian” (as opposed to those “ethnics”).

    Paul Keating actually exemplified that in his multicultural rhetoric if you read him closely – there was always a “we” who gracefully allowed “them” to open restaurants and contribute to our place in the global economy etc.

  19. cs

    I see the victors are happily writing history again, retrospectively insulting the achievements and oppositions of my Celtic ancestors in the usual ways – Andrew appealing to the mythical Australian stupidity, Jason appealing to descriptive utilitarianism, Fydor adhering fast to genocide by breeding, Amanda appealing to general wishy-washy, and Geoff appealing to smartarsery. Be assured barbarians, just because we lost doesn’t mean we’ve dissappeared, or forgotten.

  20. cs

    I see the victors are happily writing history again, retrospectively insulting the achievements and oppositions of my Celtic ancestors in the usual ways – Andrew appealing to the mythical Australian stupidity, Jason appealing to descriptive utilitarianism, Fydor adhering fast to genocide by breeding, Amanda appealing to general wishy-washy, and Geoff appealing to smartarsery. Be assured barbarians, just because we lost doesn’t mean we’ve dissappeared, or forgotten.

  21. Fyodor

    You go, girlfriend. Defending the Celtic Volk since 2005!

  22. Fyodor

    You go, girlfriend. Defending the Celtic Volk since 2005!

  23. Evil Pundit

    Fancy that, a Celt calling someone else a barbarian!

  24. Evil Pundit

    Fancy that, a Celt calling someone else a barbarian!

  25. Amanda

    Whatyougunndo? Hit me with your bodhran? Sic Jimeoin onto me? Ask the huns about taking us on!

    PS my avatar is a good Irish lass, so I’m allowed.

  26. Amanda

    Whatyougunndo? Hit me with your bodhran? Sic Jimeoin onto me? Ask the huns about taking us on!

    PS my avatar is a good Irish lass, so I’m allowed.

  27. cs

    And you have fun with your vicious little melting pot, my dear.

  28. cs

    And you have fun with your vicious little melting pot, my dear.

  29. cs

    By which I mean Ms Fyodor.

  30. cs

    By which I mean Ms Fyodor.

  31. liam hogan

    To bring one of my heroes into the discussion—Al Grassby used to semi-seriously oppose the inclusion of ‘Australian’ as an ethnic identifier in the Census. If people are allowed or encouraged to call themselves ‘Australian’ they’re more likely to gloss over any other heritage they might otherwise be proud of within an overarching Australian identity.
    Oh, and ‘anglo-celtic’ culture in Australia in the nineteenth-century? That’s about as realistic as saying that the West Bank has a Judeo-Palestinian culture.

  32. liam hogan

    To bring one of my heroes into the discussion—Al Grassby used to semi-seriously oppose the inclusion of ‘Australian’ as an ethnic identifier in the Census. If people are allowed or encouraged to call themselves ‘Australian’ they’re more likely to gloss over any other heritage they might otherwise be proud of within an overarching Australian identity.
    Oh, and ‘anglo-celtic’ culture in Australia in the nineteenth-century? That’s about as realistic as saying that the West Bank has a Judeo-Palestinian culture.

  33. Evil Pundit

    Al Grassby was so wrong.

    Identifying as Australian, a part of the Anglosphere, is of critical importance these days. The last thing we need is ethnic discrimination and conflict because some groups are encouraged to set themselves apart from the rest of society.

  34. Evil Pundit

    Al Grassby was so wrong.

    Identifying as Australian, a part of the Anglosphere, is of critical importance these days. The last thing we need is ethnic discrimination and conflict because some groups are encouraged to set themselves apart from the rest of society.

  35. Fyodor

    EP is displaying his characteristically deep and intensive knowledge of ethno-linguistics, playing upon the irony of Celts calling others barbarians. As we all know, the word “barbarian” comes from the Greeks, who named the Celtic tribes to their North Barbarians after mocking their way of speaking: “bar-bar-bar-bar”. Of course, the Greeks were hardly likely to understand the Celtic rallying cry at cocktail hour.

  36. Fyodor

    EP is displaying his characteristically deep and intensive knowledge of ethno-linguistics, playing upon the irony of Celts calling others barbarians. As we all know, the word “barbarian” comes from the Greeks, who named the Celtic tribes to their North Barbarians after mocking their way of speaking: “bar-bar-bar-bar”. Of course, the Greeks were hardly likely to understand the Celtic rallying cry at cocktail hour.

  37. liam hogan

    Evil Pundit. If you don’t know what you’re talking about, Step. Away. From. The. Keyboard.
    Grassby’s vision of multiculturalism was one in which ethnicity and diversity supported and bolstered an overarching, egalitarian Australian nationalism. He even used to love to use the dodgy term ‘Family of the Nation’ in speeches.
    As to the ‘Anglosphere’. If ever I were to identify with the Anglosphere, Catholic sections of cemeteries across New South Wales would start shuddering with my Mick ancestors rotating in their graves.

  38. liam hogan

    Evil Pundit. If you don’t know what you’re talking about, Step. Away. From. The. Keyboard.
    Grassby’s vision of multiculturalism was one in which ethnicity and diversity supported and bolstered an overarching, egalitarian Australian nationalism. He even used to love to use the dodgy term ‘Family of the Nation’ in speeches.
    As to the ‘Anglosphere’. If ever I were to identify with the Anglosphere, Catholic sections of cemeteries across New South Wales would start shuddering with my Mick ancestors rotating in their graves.

  39. Amanda

    In Russian, Germans are still called “nemetsky” meaning literally “no tongue” which goes back to those days. You don’t speaka the slav, you’re no one brother.

  40. Amanda

    In Russian, Germans are still called “nemetsky” meaning literally “no tongue” which goes back to those days. You don’t speaka the slav, you’re no one brother.

  41. cs

    Keep the faith Liam. We’ll see off these Anglos yet brother.

  42. cs

    Keep the faith Liam. We’ll see off these Anglos yet brother.

  43. Evil Pundit

    Nice to see you demonstrating your allegiance to overarching Australian identity by bringing your Mick ancestors into it.

    I think this may be what I find wrong with Grassby’s attitude. The Australian and civilizational affiliation needs to be primary, not something to be dumped because your great-grandfather had a stoush with your neighbour’s great-grandfather.

  44. Evil Pundit

    Nice to see you demonstrating your allegiance to overarching Australian identity by bringing your Mick ancestors into it.

    I think this may be what I find wrong with Grassby’s attitude. The Australian and civilizational affiliation needs to be primary, not something to be dumped because your great-grandfather had a stoush with your neighbour’s great-grandfather.

  45. cs

    As if only yesterday Mr Evil, merely yesterday.

  46. cs

    As if only yesterday Mr Evil, merely yesterday.

  47. Mark

    German-Australians are of course Celts by courtesy, at least when in their cups.

  48. Mark

    German-Australians are of course Celts by courtesy, at least when in their cups.

  49. Mindy

    Liam, if everyone who didn’t know what they were talking about stepped away from the keyboard the blogosphere would be very empty indeed.

  50. Mindy

    Liam, if everyone who didn’t know what they were talking about stepped away from the keyboard the blogosphere would be very empty indeed.

  51. liam hogan

    Yeah, but whose Australian identity is it,EP? If you go about insisting that Australian identity is Anglo- and Anglospheric you might have a fight on your hands from the communities of non-Anglo Australian immigrants, who’ve often been in Australia since the early nineteenth century. The Jews, for instance, the Germans, the Chinese, Afghans, and Pacific Islanders, might buckle at that.
    All of this is not to mention, of course, the one group whose claim to an Australian identity beats everybody else’s—the Aborigines. Tell them they need to be a part of the Anglosphere.

  52. liam hogan

    Yeah, but whose Australian identity is it,EP? If you go about insisting that Australian identity is Anglo- and Anglospheric you might have a fight on your hands from the communities of non-Anglo Australian immigrants, who’ve often been in Australia since the early nineteenth century. The Jews, for instance, the Germans, the Chinese, Afghans, and Pacific Islanders, might buckle at that.
    All of this is not to mention, of course, the one group whose claim to an Australian identity beats everybody else’s—the Aborigines. Tell them they need to be a part of the Anglosphere.

  53. liam hogan

    Mindy: true, all too true. There are degrees of ignorance, though.

  54. liam hogan

    Mindy: true, all too true. There are degrees of ignorance, though.

  55. Mark

    The Anglosphere is twaddle.

    It just means EP likes Blair and Bush’s policies on Iraq.

    The debate over Anglo capitalism vs. the Continental “social protection” model and East Asian capitalism is much more nuanced and interesting.

  56. Mark

    The Anglosphere is twaddle.

    It just means EP likes Blair and Bush’s policies on Iraq.

    The debate over Anglo capitalism vs. the Continental “social protection” model and East Asian capitalism is much more nuanced and interesting.

  57. Evil Pundit

    The Aborigines do need to be a part of the Anglosphere. It’s the only way they’ll manage to raise themselves from the hole they’re in.

    It’s a style of civilisation, not an ethnicity. I’d rather call it something else, but no suitable term has emerged with any force of popularity.

    An economic debate which boils down to which form of capitalism is preferable is hardly interesting at all. Wake me when one style wins.

  58. Evil Pundit

    The Aborigines do need to be a part of the Anglosphere. It’s the only way they’ll manage to raise themselves from the hole they’re in.

    It’s a style of civilisation, not an ethnicity. I’d rather call it something else, but no suitable term has emerged with any force of popularity.

    An economic debate which boils down to which form of capitalism is preferable is hardly interesting at all. Wake me when one style wins.

  59. Mark

    EP, I’d have thought you’d have preferred the most deregulatory style – that of the so-called Anglosphere, not the dreaded Swedish model.

  60. Mark

    EP, I’d have thought you’d have preferred the most deregulatory style – that of the so-called Anglosphere, not the dreaded Swedish model.

  61. Geoff Honnor

    “All of this is not to mention, of course, the one group whose claim to an Australian identity beats everybody else?Äôs?Äîthe Aborigines. Tell them they need to be a part of the Anglosphere.’

    The majority of indigenous Australians probably do have Anglo-Celtic ancestry Liam – and Asian and Pacific ancestry as well in many cases. Modern-day aboriginality is as much a construct of Settlement as it is of it’s older antecedents

  62. Geoff Honnor

    “All of this is not to mention, of course, the one group whose claim to an Australian identity beats everybody else?Äôs?Äîthe Aborigines. Tell them they need to be a part of the Anglosphere.’

    The majority of indigenous Australians probably do have Anglo-Celtic ancestry Liam – and Asian and Pacific ancestry as well in many cases. Modern-day aboriginality is as much a construct of Settlement as it is of it’s older antecedents

  63. Geoff Honnor

    “and Geoff appealing to smartarsery. Be assured barbarians, just because we lost doesn?Äôt mean we?Äôve dissappeared, or forgotten.”

    I may be a smartarse but how dare you assume I’m not Celtic!

  64. Geoff Honnor

    “and Geoff appealing to smartarsery. Be assured barbarians, just because we lost doesn?Äôt mean we?Äôve dissappeared, or forgotten.”

    I may be a smartarse but how dare you assume I’m not Celtic!

  65. Evil Pundit

    I meant, wake me after vastly superior Anglospeheric capitalism crushes and destroys the inferuior, subhuman capitalism of the Swedes.

  66. Evil Pundit

    I meant, wake me after vastly superior Anglospeheric capitalism crushes and destroys the inferuior, subhuman capitalism of the Swedes.

  67. Mark

    Thanks, EP – I was worried about you there for a moment.

  68. Mark

    Thanks, EP – I was worried about you there for a moment.

  69. Fyodor

    “I may be a smartarse but how dare you assume I?Äôm not Celtic!”

    Ditto.

  70. Fyodor

    “I may be a smartarse but how dare you assume I?Äôm not Celtic!”

    Ditto.

  71. Jason Soon

    Liam
    Read Iain Buruma ‘Voltaire’s coconuts’. Jews and other ethnicities have come to identify with, for want of a better word, the Anglosphere. I consider the Anglosphere to be a non-racial, non-ethnic description of the coming liberal universalism under which the atavistic and pointless tribalisms and Balkanisations of the past will crumble, a civilisation of openness, critical rationalist, secularism and freedom open to all …

    Top that EP!

  72. Jason Soon

    Liam
    Read Iain Buruma ‘Voltaire’s coconuts’. Jews and other ethnicities have come to identify with, for want of a better word, the Anglosphere. I consider the Anglosphere to be a non-racial, non-ethnic description of the coming liberal universalism under which the atavistic and pointless tribalisms and Balkanisations of the past will crumble, a civilisation of openness, critical rationalist, secularism and freedom open to all …

    Top that EP!

  73. Mark

    A nice dream, Jason, but I’d need a bit more convincing that liberal universalism is really coming – it seems to be going backwards even in the Anglosphere with the resurgence of violent and power politics which you’ve previously criticised.

    It’s very hard to see Bush as a precursor of liberal universalism.

  74. Mark

    A nice dream, Jason, but I’d need a bit more convincing that liberal universalism is really coming – it seems to be going backwards even in the Anglosphere with the resurgence of violent and power politics which you’ve previously criticised.

    It’s very hard to see Bush as a precursor of liberal universalism.

  75. cs

    My apologies Geoff and Ms Fyodor. I believe I owe you both a cow, or compensating praise-poem.

  76. cs

    My apologies Geoff and Ms Fyodor. I believe I owe you both a cow, or compensating praise-poem.

  77. Fyodor

    …open to all…cyborgs?

    Sorry. Just sounded cooler with cyborgs thrown in.

  78. Fyodor

    …open to all…cyborgs?

    Sorry. Just sounded cooler with cyborgs thrown in.

  79. Fyodor

    CS,

    I believe the usual compensation is a poynt. Slainte.

  80. Fyodor

    CS,

    I believe the usual compensation is a poynt. Slainte.

  81. Evil Pundit

    I agree, the only way to top Jason’s description is tyo add cyborgs. Possibly even lesbian ones.

  82. Evil Pundit

    I agree, the only way to top Jason’s description is tyo add cyborgs. Possibly even lesbian ones.

  83. liam hogan

    Jason, I like the idea of a liberal benign State as much as the next person, or, if the next person happens to be EP, probably much more than the next person. Sweden is, after all, a success story as States go. 🙂
    Though it was a very long time ago that I read his stuff, I found Buruma depressing reading, as I do most classical liberals who write about ethnicity and race. Because liberalism is such a negative doctrine—the state shouldn’t do this, the state shouldn’t do that—it’s hard for them to come up with a decent proposition for how people should negotiate other people’s identifications.
    Levy’s Multiculturalism of Fear is the classic document of this school of thought. Get rid of the State, he argues, and the means for ethnic oppression and conflict disappears. If only it were so easy!
    Multiculturalism on the Canadian/Australian model of Trudeau/Grassby kind of gets to an answer, by balancing out minority rights with universal citizenship rights. It’s always a juggling act, though.
    If the ‘anglosphere’ were an ethnically neutral term it might find more support. As it is, it’s meaning-loaded heavier than a B-double on the Pacific Highway.

  84. liam hogan

    Jason, I like the idea of a liberal benign State as much as the next person, or, if the next person happens to be EP, probably much more than the next person. Sweden is, after all, a success story as States go. 🙂
    Though it was a very long time ago that I read his stuff, I found Buruma depressing reading, as I do most classical liberals who write about ethnicity and race. Because liberalism is such a negative doctrine—the state shouldn’t do this, the state shouldn’t do that—it’s hard for them to come up with a decent proposition for how people should negotiate other people’s identifications.
    Levy’s Multiculturalism of Fear is the classic document of this school of thought. Get rid of the State, he argues, and the means for ethnic oppression and conflict disappears. If only it were so easy!
    Multiculturalism on the Canadian/Australian model of Trudeau/Grassby kind of gets to an answer, by balancing out minority rights with universal citizenship rights. It’s always a juggling act, though.
    If the ‘anglosphere’ were an ethnically neutral term it might find more support. As it is, it’s meaning-loaded heavier than a B-double on the Pacific Highway.

  85. liam hogan

    I wonder what Karl Popper would have to say about the matter, though?

  86. liam hogan

    I wonder what Karl Popper would have to say about the matter, though?

  87. Evil Pundit

    I do agree it needs a better name — though the existing “Anglo” part probably refers to common language and cultural heritage rather than ethnicity. I suspect Anglos are a minority in the Anglosphere in any case.

  88. Evil Pundit

    I do agree it needs a better name — though the existing “Anglo” part probably refers to common language and cultural heritage rather than ethnicity. I suspect Anglos are a minority in the Anglosphere in any case.

  89. James Farrell

    The terms Anglo-Saxon, Anglo-Celtic, Anglo etc. are all clumsy attempts to give a more scientific and innocuous name to what the unwashed simply call Australians. And they know what they mean. It’s anyone who: (a) has lived in Australia for most of their life, (b) is white-skinned, (c] speaks without any trace of a foreign accent, and (d) doesn’t overtly identify with any other durable ethnicity such as Greek or Croatian. Any northern european can qualify as long as the accent is gone. My grandmother, who was born in England and came here at 12, referred to herself unhesitatingly as Australian, whereas the Australian-born lady next door was Italian in her eyes. Young kids routinely distinguish betweens ‘Australian’ and ‘not-Australian’, where the latter includes asian, middle-eastern, islanders, and even aborigines. But you could have immigrated here at ten with your Dutch or even Estonian parents and still be called an Australian or a ‘skip’.

    Explaining how this boundary came about and why it persists is a job for a sociologist. But the first step is to identify it correctly, and we won’t make any progress if we persist in the assumption that it has to do with the British Isles.

  90. James Farrell

    The terms Anglo-Saxon, Anglo-Celtic, Anglo etc. are all clumsy attempts to give a more scientific and innocuous name to what the unwashed simply call Australians. And they know what they mean. It’s anyone who: (a) has lived in Australia for most of their life, (b) is white-skinned, (c] speaks without any trace of a foreign accent, and (d) doesn’t overtly identify with any other durable ethnicity such as Greek or Croatian. Any northern european can qualify as long as the accent is gone. My grandmother, who was born in England and came here at 12, referred to herself unhesitatingly as Australian, whereas the Australian-born lady next door was Italian in her eyes. Young kids routinely distinguish betweens ‘Australian’ and ‘not-Australian’, where the latter includes asian, middle-eastern, islanders, and even aborigines. But you could have immigrated here at ten with your Dutch or even Estonian parents and still be called an Australian or a ‘skip’.

    Explaining how this boundary came about and why it persists is a job for a sociologist. But the first step is to identify it correctly, and we won’t make any progress if we persist in the assumption that it has to do with the British Isles.

  91. Mark

    I agree, James.

  92. Mark

    I agree, James.

  93. cs

    Got it. We’re all agreed then that we drop the ‘Anglo’.

  94. cs

    Got it. We’re all agreed then that we drop the ‘Anglo’.

  95. Mark

    and keep the sphere?

  96. Mark

    and keep the sphere?

  97. Kim

    Interesting metaphor the anglo “sphere” – kinda implies anglo domination of the globe!

  98. Kim

    Interesting metaphor the anglo “sphere” – kinda implies anglo domination of the globe!

  99. Kim

    Also, no one has answered Liam’s question about what Popper would think. Was Popper Anglo?

  100. Kim

    Also, no one has answered Liam’s question about what Popper would think. Was Popper Anglo?

  101. liam hogan

    Perhaps Popper would have backed an Österrosphere?

  102. liam hogan

    Perhaps Popper would have backed an Österrosphere?

  103. Mark

    In the spirit of the Hapsburgs? Austria est imperator orbum universalem?

    That’s probably dodgy Latin – going out now – no time to check it!

  104. Mark

    In the spirit of the Hapsburgs? Austria est imperator orbum universalem?

    That’s probably dodgy Latin – going out now – no time to check it!

  105. Fyodor

    Where’s East (Ost) on a sphere, Liam?

    Dr. Popper is sweet, fizzy an’ glows in the dark.

  106. Fyodor

    Where’s East (Ost) on a sphere, Liam?

    Dr. Popper is sweet, fizzy an’ glows in the dark.

  107. Jason Soon

    Popper’s ideal of the cosmopolitan, open society is essentially also the Amglosphere idea. If all multiculturalism means is allowing cultural diversity insofar as this does not breach equality under the law, then it is already implicit in the Anglosphere ideal. If it means more than that, I am not in favour of it. I think the non-laissez faire form of multiculturalism is a recipe for subsidising and entrenching tribalisms which should go the way of the dodo bird

  108. Jason Soon

    Popper’s ideal of the cosmopolitan, open society is essentially also the Amglosphere idea. If all multiculturalism means is allowing cultural diversity insofar as this does not breach equality under the law, then it is already implicit in the Anglosphere ideal. If it means more than that, I am not in favour of it. I think the non-laissez faire form of multiculturalism is a recipe for subsidising and entrenching tribalisms which should go the way of the dodo bird

  109. liam hogan

    Jason—on what multiculturalism in Australia has been, see my post on Al Grassby.
    Equality before the law is one thing, expecting migrants to just assimilate to an assumed ‘Australian’ norm, Anglo or otherwise, is quite another.

  110. liam hogan

    Jason—on what multiculturalism in Australia has been, see my post on Al Grassby.
    Equality before the law is one thing, expecting migrants to just assimilate to an assumed ‘Australian’ norm, Anglo or otherwise, is quite another.

  111. cs

    Be warned! The Celticsphere is rising, bringing peace and wisdom to this troubled medium, along with whipping the Anglo-Saxon barbarians. Yet no-one else need worry, for, unlike the bitter Anglos, hospitality to strangers is our duty under the restored Brehon Law.

  112. cs

    Be warned! The Celticsphere is rising, bringing peace and wisdom to this troubled medium, along with whipping the Anglo-Saxon barbarians. Yet no-one else need worry, for, unlike the bitter Anglos, hospitality to strangers is our duty under the restored Brehon Law.

  113. harry

    Interestingly enough the genes for fair skin and red hair are linked to those for smallpox resistance.

  114. harry

    Interestingly enough the genes for fair skin and red hair are linked to those for smallpox resistance.

  115. Francis Xavier Holden

    I’ve always objected to the “Anglo” bit. I’m Irish X 2, plus German plus Jewish.

    Off topic but On Topic for Anzac Day. My great Uncle always claimed he was the only person imprisoned by both sides in the war. He was initially interred here for having a German sounding name, then he enlisted and was eventually imprisoned in a concentration camp by the Japanese. I don’t now about cause and efect but he was a bigoted old prick who drank too much and never married, voted DLP and thought Readers Digest was intellectual fodder.

  116. Francis Xavier Holden

    I’ve always objected to the “Anglo” bit. I’m Irish X 2, plus German plus Jewish.

    Off topic but On Topic for Anzac Day. My great Uncle always claimed he was the only person imprisoned by both sides in the war. He was initially interred here for having a German sounding name, then he enlisted and was eventually imprisoned in a concentration camp by the Japanese. I don’t now about cause and efect but he was a bigoted old prick who drank too much and never married, voted DLP and thought Readers Digest was intellectual fodder.

  117. Nabakov

    Speaking as someone descended from Oliver Cromwell, Hugenot dyers and printers, the real Flashman (google “Fred Burnaby”) and white Russian adventurers, I reckon we’re all making it up as we go along.

    “Anglo-celtic” is a handy piece of shorthand. But like all shorthand, it’s only an abbreviated gesture towards a much more complicated and often discursive cursive hand.

  118. Nabakov

    Speaking as someone descended from Oliver Cromwell, Hugenot dyers and printers, the real Flashman (google “Fred Burnaby”) and white Russian adventurers, I reckon we’re all making it up as we go along.

    “Anglo-celtic” is a handy piece of shorthand. But like all shorthand, it’s only an abbreviated gesture towards a much more complicated and often discursive cursive hand.

  119. Mark

    Are you descended from Cromwell in the same way that every US President claims descent from British royals, Nabs? Still – I’d be prouder of the former (if it wasn’t for all that Irish genocide!).

  120. Mark

    Are you descended from Cromwell in the same way that every US President claims descent from British royals, Nabs? Still – I’d be prouder of the former (if it wasn’t for all that Irish genocide!).

  121. rex bellatore

    EP: “Fancy that, a Celt calling someone else a barbarian!”

    Yes, well, EP, the Saxons, Angles, and Jutes were Barbarians – German Barbarians. The Celts, Irish, Welsh, and Britons were Romanized, and before that, had many affinities to ancient Greek civilisation.

  122. rex bellatore

    EP: “Fancy that, a Celt calling someone else a barbarian!”

    Yes, well, EP, the Saxons, Angles, and Jutes were Barbarians – German Barbarians. The Celts, Irish, Welsh, and Britons were Romanized, and before that, had many affinities to ancient Greek civilisation.

  123. cs

    We celts were never romanised until that pommie pope came along. Before that it was strictly powersharing with the less-eternal-than-us city, and we’ve forgotten neither oppressor, although severe gradiants exist – we celts after all shaped so much of christianity (often they hardly noticed), in a major above-weight contest. The affinities moreover extend to Africa and India.

    No need to come back and be a smartarse Nabs. Just a footnote.

  124. cs

    We celts were never romanised until that pommie pope came along. Before that it was strictly powersharing with the less-eternal-than-us city, and we’ve forgotten neither oppressor, although severe gradiants exist – we celts after all shaped so much of christianity (often they hardly noticed), in a major above-weight contest. The affinities moreover extend to Africa and India.

    No need to come back and be a smartarse Nabs. Just a footnote.

  125. Fyodor

    The Irish were never romanised. The Britons (but not the Picts and Caledones) were romanised after the Emperor Claudius invaded the island in 47CE. The Welsh never called themselves “Welsh” [it’s an Anglo-Saxon word], and were ethnically indistinguishable from other Britons. For that matter, none of the Celts called themselves Celts, as it was a Greek term (Keltoi). When pressed, they called themselves Parisii, Helvetii, Belgae, Silures, Trinovantes, yadda, yadda. This whole idea of a Celtic identity is often blown out of proportion: often the only connection between “Celtic” tribes was a similar or common language.

    As for the Celtic contribution to Christianity, Christianity returned the favour by obliterating and/or assimilating the original religious culture of the Celtic peoples.

  126. Fyodor

    The Irish were never romanised. The Britons (but not the Picts and Caledones) were romanised after the Emperor Claudius invaded the island in 47CE. The Welsh never called themselves “Welsh” [it’s an Anglo-Saxon word], and were ethnically indistinguishable from other Britons. For that matter, none of the Celts called themselves Celts, as it was a Greek term (Keltoi). When pressed, they called themselves Parisii, Helvetii, Belgae, Silures, Trinovantes, yadda, yadda. This whole idea of a Celtic identity is often blown out of proportion: often the only connection between “Celtic” tribes was a similar or common language.

    As for the Celtic contribution to Christianity, Christianity returned the favour by obliterating and/or assimilating the original religious culture of the Celtic peoples.

  127. Amanda

    The celts can stop whinging. The Logies this year are being hosted by three blokes called McGuire, O’Keefe and McManus. If that isn’t a symbol of cultural triumph I don’t know what is.

    My contribution to keeping the religious culture of the Celtic people alive is a tattoo if the Kilpeck Sheela na gig.

  128. Amanda

    The celts can stop whinging. The Logies this year are being hosted by three blokes called McGuire, O’Keefe and McManus. If that isn’t a symbol of cultural triumph I don’t know what is.

    My contribution to keeping the religious culture of the Celtic people alive is a tattoo if the Kilpeck Sheela na gig.

  129. Jason Soon

    Fyodor
    you’re really a Celt, aren’t you? you seem to be highly conversant on the topic of Celticism (?)
    Interestingly, the last time I had a drink with your old nemesis Jack Strocchi we briefly talked about you and he speculated that you were probably Eastern European Jewish because of your brand of humour

  130. Jason Soon

    Fyodor
    you’re really a Celt, aren’t you? you seem to be highly conversant on the topic of Celticism (?)
    Interestingly, the last time I had a drink with your old nemesis Jack Strocchi we briefly talked about you and he speculated that you were probably Eastern European Jewish because of your brand of humour

  131. cs

    Fyodor, you mistake the roman empire for the rome church (check pope adrian), and your last point repeats one of mine.

  132. cs

    Fyodor, you mistake the roman empire for the rome church (check pope adrian), and your last point repeats one of mine.

  133. Fyodor

    Definitely more Celt than Jewish. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

    Tell Jack I miss him.

  134. Fyodor

    Definitely more Celt than Jewish. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

    Tell Jack I miss him.

  135. Fyodor

    CS,

    Ah. Rome. Confusion over the Church and the Empire. You’re talking about Pope Adrian IV and his supposed endorsement of Henry II’s conquest of Ireland. I gather there’s some dispute as to whether Adrian IV ever gave such an endorsement. More importantly, the point’s moot, IMO, as the Irish had already had their pogues handed to them by assorted Vikings and Anglo-Norman adventurers (e.g. Strongbow). Ireland was ripe for the taking by the English/Normans, who duly obliged.

  136. Fyodor

    CS,

    Ah. Rome. Confusion over the Church and the Empire. You’re talking about Pope Adrian IV and his supposed endorsement of Henry II’s conquest of Ireland. I gather there’s some dispute as to whether Adrian IV ever gave such an endorsement. More importantly, the point’s moot, IMO, as the Irish had already had their pogues handed to them by assorted Vikings and Anglo-Norman adventurers (e.g. Strongbow). Ireland was ripe for the taking by the English/Normans, who duly obliged.

  137. Meg

    As someone whose cultural heritage is mostly Celtic (Cornish and Irish) I’ve done a wee bit of research. The Celts are indeed racially different to the Anglo-Saxons.. and I’ve posted on my (so new it’s still shiny) blog and interesting article that I found on that topic.
    Here: http://destructomeg.blogspot.com/2005/04/not-celts-at-all.html

  138. Meg

    As someone whose cultural heritage is mostly Celtic (Cornish and Irish) I’ve done a wee bit of research. The Celts are indeed racially different to the Anglo-Saxons.. and I’ve posted on my (so new it’s still shiny) blog and interesting article that I found on that topic.
    Here: http://destructomeg.blogspot.com/2005/04/not-celts-at-all.html

  139. Fyodor

    Meg,

    The term “Celtic” is linguistic, not genetic. Unfortunately, people have a tendency to get hung up on “race” when ethnicity and linguistics are far more important to identity.

    Bradley et al. did not say that the Celts were racially different to the Anglo-Saxons. Their findings were that there is a high degree of genetic commonality amongst peoples in the “Atlantic Facade” ranging from Northern Spain through the British Isles to Scandinavia. Moreover, there is a high degree of genetic match between people in the British Isles.

    The full article can be found here:

    http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v75n4/41464/41464.html

  140. Fyodor

    Meg,

    The term “Celtic” is linguistic, not genetic. Unfortunately, people have a tendency to get hung up on “race” when ethnicity and linguistics are far more important to identity.

    Bradley et al. did not say that the Celts were racially different to the Anglo-Saxons. Their findings were that there is a high degree of genetic commonality amongst peoples in the “Atlantic Facade” ranging from Northern Spain through the British Isles to Scandinavia. Moreover, there is a high degree of genetic match between people in the British Isles.

    The full article can be found here:

    http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v75n4/41464/41464.html

  141. harry

    “Welsh” means “foreigner” – although, at the time, it sounded more like someone wringing out their tongue whilst sneezing.

    ‘Celt’ is like ‘Native American’ – try telling a Crow he’s the same as a Comanche – just that over the years the tribal affiliations and rivalries of the Celts have been eroded and mixed to the point of meaninglessness, like stones that are now sand.

    I reckon it would be cool to see the Sheilii proclaiming Elizabeth Bay an unconquered hold-out, bravely staring down the catapults and rising earthworks around them.

    I heard a radio documentary a couple years back tracing the tune of ‘Danny Boy’. They had a couple of musicologists and a biologist explaining how it was, with reference to the human ear and brain reaction to music, a perfect tune. They then traced it from today, back through the Irish diaspora of the 1800s and beyond into the middle ages where the trail pretty much went cold (due to lack of musical notation of the time). The tune was far older than the words, naturally and was found in a number of very old bits of music. The guys then went over to a folk festival in Breton and played “Danny Boy”, and all the Bretons started singing along (totally different words of course), and asked how these Irish people knew the Breton song they’d played. The Irish dudes were quite impressed. Conclusion: the tune of Danny Boy is perhaps the oldest Western European tune there is.

  142. harry

    “Welsh” means “foreigner” – although, at the time, it sounded more like someone wringing out their tongue whilst sneezing.

    ‘Celt’ is like ‘Native American’ – try telling a Crow he’s the same as a Comanche – just that over the years the tribal affiliations and rivalries of the Celts have been eroded and mixed to the point of meaninglessness, like stones that are now sand.

    I reckon it would be cool to see the Sheilii proclaiming Elizabeth Bay an unconquered hold-out, bravely staring down the catapults and rising earthworks around them.

    I heard a radio documentary a couple years back tracing the tune of ‘Danny Boy’. They had a couple of musicologists and a biologist explaining how it was, with reference to the human ear and brain reaction to music, a perfect tune. They then traced it from today, back through the Irish diaspora of the 1800s and beyond into the middle ages where the trail pretty much went cold (due to lack of musical notation of the time). The tune was far older than the words, naturally and was found in a number of very old bits of music. The guys then went over to a folk festival in Breton and played “Danny Boy”, and all the Bretons started singing along (totally different words of course), and asked how these Irish people knew the Breton song they’d played. The Irish dudes were quite impressed. Conclusion: the tune of Danny Boy is perhaps the oldest Western European tune there is.

  143. Nabakov

    Nice little nugget of info there, harry boy. Perhaps the fact it’s a tune anyone can sing along too pissed that also aided in its propogation?

    Seriously though, coming across unexpected but tasty infobites like that is one of the joys of blogging.

  144. Nabakov

    Nice little nugget of info there, harry boy. Perhaps the fact it’s a tune anyone can sing along too pissed that also aided in its propogation?

    Seriously though, coming across unexpected but tasty infobites like that is one of the joys of blogging.

  145. cs

    Great story harry. Also great suggestion, anticipating my developing masterplan to establish Elizabeth Bay as a province of the ancient Kingdom of Ulster, or Ulaid as we call it. Sheil is, I’m told by keepers of the family heritage, an anglicised (boo! hiss!) variant of the Gaelic ‘O Saidhail’ or ‘O Siaghail’. The name (which means descendent of Siaghal or Siadhal) is “by any test an Ulster one. The family is of the race of Maine, son of the legendary King Niall of the Nine Hostages“.

    OK, now where is my supply of wode, I’m off to learn some more bloodcurdling war cries, shape-shifting and other odds and ends from my local Druids with the rest of the Lizzie Bay insurgency.

    Freedom!

  146. cs

    Great story harry. Also great suggestion, anticipating my developing masterplan to establish Elizabeth Bay as a province of the ancient Kingdom of Ulster, or Ulaid as we call it. Sheil is, I’m told by keepers of the family heritage, an anglicised (boo! hiss!) variant of the Gaelic ‘O Saidhail’ or ‘O Siaghail’. The name (which means descendent of Siaghal or Siadhal) is “by any test an Ulster one. The family is of the race of Maine, son of the legendary King Niall of the Nine Hostages“.

    OK, now where is my supply of wode, I’m off to learn some more bloodcurdling war cries, shape-shifting and other odds and ends from my local Druids with the rest of the Lizzie Bay insurgency.

    Freedom!

  147. Nabakov

    That’s right cs, hit the woad why don’t you.

  148. Nabakov

    That’s right cs, hit the woad why don’t you.

  149. cs

    Fussy cat aren’t you Nabs. Well let me say, ay, fight and you may die, run and you’ll live. At least a while. And dying in your beds many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance, just one chance to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they’ll never take our freedom, if you get me drift.

  150. cs

    Fussy cat aren’t you Nabs. Well let me say, ay, fight and you may die, run and you’ll live. At least a while. And dying in your beds many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance, just one chance to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they’ll never take our freedom, if you get me drift.

  151. wbb

    Cut! If I’d’ve wanted extemporisation I’d have hired the community hall -this is Broadway – keep to the script.

  152. wbb

    Cut! If I’d’ve wanted extemporisation I’d have hired the community hall -this is Broadway – keep to the script.

  153. cs

    everyone’s a bloody critic

  154. cs

    everyone’s a bloody critic

  155. harry

    “coming across unexpected but tasty infobites like that is one of the joys of blogging.”
    I thought it was the purpose of life?

    Anyway, I have added this here becuase it seems most appropriate.
    GO AND SEE “DOWNFALL” (The movie about the last weeks of the Third Reich)
    It is stunning.
    The Germans have done a breathtakingly good job.
    I don’t know how they did it but the actors look so like the historical figures it’s uncanny. They must have asked every German who could act and wanted to do such a movie to audition.
    It is a historian’s movie. There were the usual sort of protests from people saying “the Nazis aren’t portrayed as the monsters they were” etc
    This film is better than that. It portrays the Nazi’s as they were. Why make them monsters when the truth speaks for itself?
    There is a fair amount of assumed knowledge, eg they assume you know whom Speer, Goebbels, Himmler, Johdel etc are.
    Anyway, the film is very good at showing the internal conflicts between the traditional German military and their oath and relationship with the Nazis.
    156Minutes. Rated M. Subtitled German. It has a mainstream release which is extremely pleasantly surprising.
    GO AND SEE IT!
    Whoever the director is is a damned genius. All his actors are superb, and since they’ve made such a push to get physical appearance correct (ie they aren’t the best actors in Germany), the director deserves as much credit as we can lump on him.

  156. harry

    “coming across unexpected but tasty infobites like that is one of the joys of blogging.”
    I thought it was the purpose of life?

    Anyway, I have added this here becuase it seems most appropriate.
    GO AND SEE “DOWNFALL” (The movie about the last weeks of the Third Reich)
    It is stunning.
    The Germans have done a breathtakingly good job.
    I don’t know how they did it but the actors look so like the historical figures it’s uncanny. They must have asked every German who could act and wanted to do such a movie to audition.
    It is a historian’s movie. There were the usual sort of protests from people saying “the Nazis aren’t portrayed as the monsters they were” etc
    This film is better than that. It portrays the Nazi’s as they were. Why make them monsters when the truth speaks for itself?
    There is a fair amount of assumed knowledge, eg they assume you know whom Speer, Goebbels, Himmler, Johdel etc are.
    Anyway, the film is very good at showing the internal conflicts between the traditional German military and their oath and relationship with the Nazis.
    156Minutes. Rated M. Subtitled German. It has a mainstream release which is extremely pleasantly surprising.
    GO AND SEE IT!
    Whoever the director is is a damned genius. All his actors are superb, and since they’ve made such a push to get physical appearance correct (ie they aren’t the best actors in Germany), the director deserves as much credit as we can lump on him.

  157. cs

    And the rest of the speech goes something like this:

    Here are Lizzie Bay’s terms. Lower your flags, and march straight back to Angloland, stopping at every Celt and Aboriginal home to beg forgiveness for 217 years of theft, rape, and murder. Do that and you shall live. Do it not, and every one of you will die today.

    I’m not finished. Before we let you leave, your dear leader must cross that harbour, present himself before this insurgency, put his head between his legs, and kiss his own ass.

  158. cs

    And the rest of the speech goes something like this:

    Here are Lizzie Bay’s terms. Lower your flags, and march straight back to Angloland, stopping at every Celt and Aboriginal home to beg forgiveness for 217 years of theft, rape, and murder. Do that and you shall live. Do it not, and every one of you will die today.

    I’m not finished. Before we let you leave, your dear leader must cross that harbour, present himself before this insurgency, put his head between his legs, and kiss his own ass.

  159. harry

    Hmm…. okay, who wants to come and throw toiletpaper rolls at Chris Sheil’s house with me?
    We’ll dress as Romans, we’ll be drunk and it’ll be great fun.

  160. harry

    Hmm…. okay, who wants to come and throw toiletpaper rolls at Chris Sheil’s house with me?
    We’ll dress as Romans, we’ll be drunk and it’ll be great fun.

  161. cs

    You’ll have to throw them on the balcony harry. A big ask in an ordinary wind, sober, sans toga. And of course, the rolls will have to compete with all the other cute oddities that are being continually lobbed in said vicinity.

    And remember, you romans never laid a glove, till we made a pragmatic blunder in admitting your religion.

  162. cs

    You’ll have to throw them on the balcony harry. A big ask in an ordinary wind, sober, sans toga. And of course, the rolls will have to compete with all the other cute oddities that are being continually lobbed in said vicinity.

    And remember, you romans never laid a glove, till we made a pragmatic blunder in admitting your religion.

  163. Nabakov

    “..till we made a pragmatic blunder in admitting your religion.”

    Mitharism? That’s where all the High Church Xainity’s ritual cannibaism stuff came from?

  164. Nabakov

    “..till we made a pragmatic blunder in admitting your religion.”

    Mitharism? That’s where all the High Church Xainity’s ritual cannibaism stuff came from?

  165. Nabakov

    Sorry, that should be “cannibalism”. Just not used to using the word outside working hours.

  166. Nabakov

    Sorry, that should be “cannibalism”. Just not used to using the word outside working hours.

  167. cs

    sloppy cat

  168. cs

    sloppy cat

  169. cs

    And that cannibalism (and human sacrifice, of sons etc on crosses etc) stuff is more mytharism than anything else, when it comes to the old ways.

  170. cs

    And that cannibalism (and human sacrifice, of sons etc on crosses etc) stuff is more mytharism than anything else, when it comes to the old ways.

  171. Mark

    I must reread my book on the Celtic alternative to Christianity.

  172. Mark

    I must reread my book on the Celtic alternative to Christianity.

  173. cs

    You have to take a very critical approach to get near Celtic history, since most accounts have been written or seen through the eyes of conquerors, or a minority of alternative romantic mythologists. The world’s-best-practice worst popular account in recent years was Cahill’s How the Irish Saved Civilization. Triumphalist christianity, unmitigated bias.

  174. cs

    You have to take a very critical approach to get near Celtic history, since most accounts have been written or seen through the eyes of conquerors, or a minority of alternative romantic mythologists. The world’s-best-practice worst popular account in recent years was Cahill’s How the Irish Saved Civilization. Triumphalist christianity, unmitigated bias.

  175. Fyodor

    What CS said. To address your point, Mark, the Celts were doing OK with polytheism until mono came along.

  176. Fyodor

    What CS said. To address your point, Mark, the Celts were doing OK with polytheism until mono came along.

  177. Lizzie McGuire Games

    I found your blog on google and read a few of your other posts. I just added you to my Google News Reader. Keep up the good work. Look forward to reading more from you in the future.

  178. Lizzie McGuire Games

    I found your blog on google and read a few of your other posts. I just added you to my Google News Reader. Keep up the good work. Look forward to reading more from you in the future.

  179. I Am From Hadria

    I remain convinced that discussion of an “Anglo-Celtic” ethnicity and culture, whether consciously or not, is motivated largely by a conservative desire to protect the homogeneity that is wrongly identified with an Australian identity.
    .
    I think that’s one use of the term but I haven’t seen it that much. It’s part of a nomenclature of regional ethnicities of origin that group together various ethnicities which at ‘home’ would be distinguishable or even have very little to do with each other. Therefore Greek, Lebanese, Italian, Spanish and Turkish Australians are all Mediterranean, Sino, Korean and Vietnamese Australians are all Asian etc.
    .
    In this context the differences between Anglo-Saxons and Celts, either Irish Catholic, or Scots-Irish Presbyterian, or Scots Presb or Welsh (Etc) – that is the cultural differences that obtain in those islands off the coast of France – don’t seem as significant in as ethnically diverse a culture as Australia’s.
    .
    And as Celts understandably don’t want to be labeled Anglo-Saxon, Anglo-Celt obtains – on the street it’s ‘Aussie’. Usually that’s all it means.

  180. I Am From Hadria

    I remain convinced that discussion of an “Anglo-Celtic” ethnicity and culture, whether consciously or not, is motivated largely by a conservative desire to protect the homogeneity that is wrongly identified with an Australian identity.
    .
    I think that’s one use of the term but I haven’t seen it that much. It’s part of a nomenclature of regional ethnicities of origin that group together various ethnicities which at ‘home’ would be distinguishable or even have very little to do with each other. Therefore Greek, Lebanese, Italian, Spanish and Turkish Australians are all Mediterranean, Sino, Korean and Vietnamese Australians are all Asian etc.
    .
    In this context the differences between Anglo-Saxons and Celts, either Irish Catholic, or Scots-Irish Presbyterian, or Scots Presb or Welsh (Etc) – that is the cultural differences that obtain in those islands off the coast of France – don’t seem as significant in as ethnically diverse a culture as Australia’s.
    .
    And as Celts understandably don’t want to be labeled Anglo-Saxon, Anglo-Celt obtains – on the street it’s ‘Aussie’. Usually that’s all it means.

  181. I Am From Hadria

    And of course we should all pay heed to the Celtic modes of improving the general intelligence of the population. Highly innovative.

  182. I Am From Hadria

    And of course we should all pay heed to the Celtic modes of improving the general intelligence of the population. Highly innovative.

  183. Fine

    Except that you do have French in Bretagne and Spaniards in Galicia who identify as Celts. Play bagpipes and all.

  184. Fine

    Except that you do have French in Bretagne and Spaniards in Galicia who identify as Celts. Play bagpipes and all.

  185. I Am Not From Hadria

    Yeah my ancestry comes quite a bit from Brittany – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Celtic_Nations1.svg

    The Spanish are outre. We don’t like Toreadors round here. Well maybe some of ’em.

    The Celts used to dominate Europe so lots of Europeans have Celtic heritage and certain countries like Iceland and England were founded by Celtic women and Nordic men.

  186. I Am Not From Hadria

    Yeah my ancestry comes quite a bit from Brittany – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Celtic_Nations1.svg

    The Spanish are outre. We don’t like Toreadors round here. Well maybe some of ’em.

    The Celts used to dominate Europe so lots of Europeans have Celtic heritage and certain countries like Iceland and England were founded by Celtic women and Nordic men.

  187. Brian

    The entry at 89 is dead set spam but it revives a thread from four years ago!

  188. Brian

    The entry at 89 is dead set spam but it revives a thread from four years ago!

  189. Ambigulous

    Brian ~ this seems to happen so regularly, that I had assumed it was Mr Greenfield just ‘avin’ a larf.
    🙁

  190. Ambigulous

    Brian ~ this seems to happen so regularly, that I had assumed it was Mr Greenfield just ‘avin’ a larf.
    🙁

  191. Brian

    It’s actually an extremely small percentage of the spam that seems to get through. We can’t blame everything on Mr G!

  192. Brian

    It’s actually an extremely small percentage of the spam that seems to get through. We can’t blame everything on Mr G!

  193. Helen

    Nice to see Chris commenting… Pity he’s not blogging any more!

  194. Helen

    Nice to see Chris commenting… Pity he’s not blogging any more!

  195. Brian

    Ah, thems were the days!

  196. Brian

    Ah, thems were the days!

  197. Francis Xavier Holden

    póg mo thóin

  198. Francis Xavier Holden

    póg mo thóin

  199. Bring Back "Bring Back Evil Pundit At LP" at LP
  200. Bring Back "Bring Back Evil Pundit At LP" at LP
  201. Juan Campoverde

    This really should be a regular thing, you know. Spam-lotto, throwing up old threads at random.
    Now, back to toga-dressed toilet-roll throwing.

  202. Juan Campoverde

    This really should be a regular thing, you know. Spam-lotto, throwing up old threads at random.
    Now, back to toga-dressed toilet-roll throwing.