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108 responses to “"The gloves are off"”

  1. Lefty E

    A friend brought me back a terrific T-shirt from the US today.

    It has a 19th Century photo of four Sioux warriors with guns, and says:
    “Homeland Security: Fighting terrorism since 1492”

  2. Lefty E

    And yes, it is hilarious that the only shot left in the Republican locker is postmodern vogueing with scare bears.
    I give them Buckley’s chance. McCain is goin’ down! The only upside to the financial crisis is that it really caps off what a compete disaster the GW Bush presidency was. Turned the US into a debt-ridden, global standing joke in 8 years flat.

  3. Stephen Lloyd

    “once met”, Mark?

    Ayers put him on the board of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, and they served on the Woods Fund board together for a number of years.

    Ayers also launched Obama’s Chicago political career by introducing him to Democrat power brokers at a party in Ayers’ living room.

    That’s more substantial than ‘once met’, and it goes to Obama’s judgment as to how he chooses who he consorts with.

    If McCain’s poor judgment in choosing his friends vis-a-vis the Keating Five is a legitimate issue, then so is this. McCain admitted it was poor judgment on his part and used it to justify his crusade for campaign finance reform.

    If you have any doubt as to the seriousness of Bill Ayers’ wrongdoing, read this.

    He also stated he was not sorry, would do it again, and felt they didnt go far enough, in an interview with the Times whilst he was on the board with Obama, and most accounts are that media surrounding Ayers in Chicago at the time was at saturation point, and there is no way Obama could not have known about Ayers’ past.

  4. Stephen Lloyd

    Also this from the National Review:

    Could you shake hands with William Ayers?

    Keep in mind, from where I sit, the only difference between Ayers and Timothy McVeigh and Eric Rudolph is that the latter two are more skilled at bomb-building, and Ayers got off on prosecutorial misconduct. Their methods and capacity for self-justification are the same.

    Could you shake hands with McVeigh or Rudolph? (Yes, I know McVeigh was executed years ago.) If they were released from prison, could you go work for them? Would you want to count them as allies? Go to their house as they threw a party for you? Would you accept a donation from them?

  5. Helen

    The proper analogy is “would you be in the same room with him”. Short of refusing to help the community building organisation Obama was working for and walking away from that childhood education program, I don’t see how he could do that.

    The Sunday AGE reported this GOP smear as if it was completely SRS. They really are getting worse and worse.

  6. Spiros

    As Bill Clinton used to say, “that dog won’t hunt”. Obama has it sewn up tighter than a mouse’s arsehole. So much so that he is in with a real chance of taking Indiana, the heartland of the Republican heartland, where the Democrats have not won since 1964.

    The Democrats are going to wipe the Republicans out. Not just in the Presidential race, but in the Senate and House as well.

  7. Lefty E

    Yeah, well McCain spent 5 years consorting exclusively with Communists.

    Thats a FACT!, etc.

  8. Caroline

    With the economy tanking

    OT Mark. But what does that expression mean? Its the second time I’ve read it in as many days.

  9. Don Wigan

    Shake hands with him, Stephen? Well, you’ve got to remember that a lot of leaders shook hands with Israel’s leaders in the first 40 years or so. Most of them were once terrorists, and none have expressed remorse. So how does Ayers differ?

    Also, I believe Ayers is now a Professor of Education. So what’s the inference of that? That a dangerous terrorist is allowed to set the curriculum of American kids? At last, an explanation for Columbine? Might start a career for a new Joe McCarthy.

  10. Ambigulous

    The Weathermen were deluded, violent, conspiratorial. Many young folk go through that kind of wild-eyed phase. Some older folk never grow out of it. The history of the 60s upheavals will continue to be rewritten, mulled over, and played out.

  11. saint

    Once met? Ayers approved his appointment to CAC. The guy then worked with him for years. Wife knows him too.(They all had a lovely conferences together as well) Obamas know Ayers wife – and even nastier piece of wor . Share the same network of friends. Obama launched his campaign from his house. He now lives in the neighbourhood thanks to a crooked loan from the indited Rezko.

    And ambigulous you really don’t know how ignorant you just made yourself sound.

  12. joe2

    “The Weathermen were deluded, violent, conspiratorial. Many young folk go through that kind of wild-eyed phase”

    So these were not members of Bureau of Meteorology, inclined towards the grey cardigan and hush puppies, that we are talking about here.

  13. Paul Burns

    Well, on the basis of some of the above statements, all Liberals (in Oz) are pro Nazi because their founder. Robert Menzies, praised Hitler in 1938 because he thought the Hitler Youth was a good way to keep young people under control.( I’ll be polite and refrain from mentioning the number of ex-Nazi war criminals Menzies let settle here post-WW2. Or for the number of ex-Nazis who actually joined the Liberal Party.
    I don’t know how the Palin smears will go in America, but I hope they go down like a lead balloon.
    Sure I’ll be disillusioned with Obama if he becomes President, but he’s a far better choice than McCain, who seems to be displaying signs of confused senility, or maybe just plain nastiness.

  14. derrida derider

    “Palin’s attack on Obama as some sort of terrorist sympathiser will reinforce that theme among those disposed to believe …”

    That last phrase is exactly why, like the “muslim sleeper” one, this slur ain’t gonna swing swinging voters. Maybe its aimed instead at energising the base, but the problem for McCain is that the base is thoroughly demoralised and in any case is fully aware that he (unlike Palin) is not the sort of holy roller nutjob they like. The tactic smacks of desperation.

    My money is on Obama in a landslide, as it has been from when I first saw him speak on TV last year.

  15. Mark

    But what does that expression mean?

    Going down the tubes, Caroline. I’m not sure where I picked it up from!

  16. Mark

    Oh, and to keep Stephen and saint happy, I’ll change “once met” to “once knew”.

  17. Tim Macknay

    I don’t understand why the Dems don’t do some solid smearing themselves. For Chrissake, Palin’s husband was a long-time member of a radical Alaskan secessionist party, whose former leader was murdered and found in a barrel! Surely there’s some scope for a smear campaign based around that.

  18. Down and Out of Sài Gòn

    Bidding Bill Ayers? I’ll raise you G. Gordon Liddy

  19. Down and Out of Sài Gòn

    …and then I’ll trump you with Russian oligarch Oleg Deripaska, who’s nastier than Ayers and Liddy put together.

  20. Cal

    Gee they really put McCain to the sword in this Rolling Stone cover story

    And he has engaged in a “practice of politics” so deceptive that even Rove himself has denounced it, saying that the outright lies in McCain’s campaign ads go “too far” and fail the “truth test.”

  21. Pavlov's Cat

    I don’t understand why the Dems don’t do some solid smearing themselves.

    Probably because they understand that one of the reasons for Obama’s popularity is his refusal to play vicious games.

  22. az

    guilt by assosiation is a very dangerous and stupid game to play. mccain is assosiated with bush, the keating 5 and if we really want to push the point, he was (unfortunatley) assosiated with the communist nva

  23. az

    6 degrees of separation

  24. Ambigulous

    hi, saint at 8.32am.

    Which bit(s) is(are) ignorant? I’m happy to admit ignorance, and always willing to learn.

  25. wizofaus

    Re the Reich article – I’ve always found the notion that excessive wealth inequalities were a major contributor to the crash that led to the Great Depression interesting, but it’s rare to find many economists agreeing with it. The only one I know of is Marriner Stoddard Eccles, who, according to the Wikipedia, did indeed believe that the lack of income/wealth available to consumers relative to that of producers was a major cause of the Depression. It’s always seems somewhat self-evident to me that there would be serious economic inefficiency and indeed instability associated with highly skewed income distributions, but do we have enough evidence now for that to be accepted as common wisdom by the powers that be?

  26. wizofaus

    Er, don’t suppose somebody can fix that up? The Linked Text is supposed to “wikipedia article”.

  27. Katz

    Could this smear have been any more inept?

    Did Palin even know of the existence of the Weathermen before this talking point was pressed before her uncomprehending eye? I doubt it.

    I suspect that some far-right aparatchik, knowing that the jig was up for the Two Mavericks, decided to purge the GOP of some enemies by supplying a convenient idiot with the Weatherman snippet.

    This looks like factions in the GOP sabotaging each other.

  28. steve at the pub

    Whatever Sarah Palin says gets reported.

    Ayers’ association with Obama is hardly news, but you wouldn’t think so from the reporting the past few days.

    My advice to the McCain camp would be to let Sarah Palin say lots of things, repeat every one of Joe Biden’s gaffes (without attribution) and keep on the way she is.

    My advice to the Obama camp? Act Presidential. Don’t get too cranky in your responses, makes you look as guilty as Sarah Palin says you are.

  29. Spiros

    Obama’s “palling around with terrorists” seems not to have convinced anyone betting on the election that he will lose it. You can now get $4.60 backing McCain.

    More than likely, of course, the smears have been completely drowned out by the sounds of the plummeting stockmarket and economy.

  30. Down and Out of Sài Gòn

    And whatever gets said at Palin’s rallies also gets reported. Sterling advice as usual, SATP.

    “Now it turns out, one of his earliest supporters is a man named Bill Ayers,” Palin said.

    “Boooo!” said the crowd.

    “And, according to the New York Times, he was a domestic terrorist and part of a group that, quote, ‘launched a campaign of bombings that would target the Pentagon and our U.S. Capitol,'” she continued.

    “Boooo!” the crowd repeated.

    “Kill him!” proposed one man in the audience.

    The whole article has to be read to savor the immaturity of the McCain/Palin campaign. As the article continued:

    At one point, a man in blackface appeared behind Palin and started walk in a threatening manner towards her.

    “Where is Obama? Where is the terrorist sympathizer?” asked Palin.

    “He’s behind you!” shouted the crowd.

    While Palin turned her head, the strange man scuttled behind the curtains. Turning back to the crowd, Palin said “I didn’t see anything. As I was saying…” while the man reappeared and continued his movements to the front.

    “He’s behind you!” shouted the crowd.

    Actually, I made the last bit up. But I wouldn’t be surprised.

  31. Andos

    Pantomime. That’s great, Down and Out. Great work.

  32. Nanuestalker

    In 2001, Ayers said he didn’t regret setting bombs, bombs intended for civilians and members of the military for who he claimed to be supporting in his protests against Vietnam.

    The only difference between Ayers & Timothy McVeigh is that McVeigh despite his low IQ knew his way around explosives.

    Why does it matter? It highlights Obama’s poor judgment. If Obama is elected president, will he make the same errors in judgement.

    He said Ayers is/was “mainstream”. In whose circles I ask.

  33. wizofaus

    “It highlights Obama’s poor judgment. If Obama is elected president, will he make the same errors in judgement”

    I’d say it’s exactly the sort of mistake that a decent person probably wouldn’t make twice.

    It’s only if he had a history of dealing closely with criminals and/or corrupt figures that I would be concerned.

  34. Nanuestalker

    Mistake? Poor judgment is poor judgment. Given Obama’s teflon approach to his brief political career, his “boneheaded” real estate deals with Rezko and his choice of pastor in Wright are a bit more than mistakes. All three men have been involved in Obama’s life as long as his wife, some eighteen years or so. Who is he really?

  35. Down and Out of Sài Gòn

    Concern troll is concerned.

  36. Katz

    Oh yes, god-fearin’ right-thinkin’ folks should feel concerned about Barack Hussein Obama, with his Muslim, African, honky-hatin’, bomb-hurlin’ ways.

    What the hell are you folks doing tap-tap-tapping away at your keyboards when you should be laying down stores in the bunker and adjusting the sites on your Rugers.

    Harden up! Look at the polls! The monster’s winning by the length of the straight!

    Time to stop talking. Someone find a rope.

  37. Nabakov

    I’m concerned that McCain has knowingly associated on frequent occasions with George W. Bush.

  38. Don Wigan

    Well, those tactics really worked a treat in Australia on Rudd in 07 with Burkegate, and Strippergate – so, I wouldn’t lose too much sleep over them.

    “National Review” I think Stephen cited. I read that once in the mistaken belief that it might be a reincarnation of our dear old Ferret, Nation Review. I was quickly disillusioned. I’ve rarely strayed there since – once to read an eminent Professor of Philosophy’s rationalisation of the use of torture in interrogation. Needless to say, the argument was less than compelling on logic or ethics. It might have had some value as a parody, like that Bush legal counsel describing the Geneva Convention on Prisoner Rights as “quaint”.

    On that basis I’d suggest National Review is a Republican shill, but I guess most of you knew that.

  39. Down and Out of Sài Gòn

    North Carolina’s gone blue. That’s the third confederate state leaning to Obama.

  40. Nanuestalker

    Katz –

    I think you’ve missed the point. Obama hasn’t made any noteworthy judgment calls, often electing to vote present on the sticky issues in the senate. As much as you may have the audacity to hope you cam, you can’t determine his competency from his judgment in hindsight & political rhetoric. He could be a black power radical, but that’s not anyone who understands the powers of congress to remove him from office would be worried about. It the fact that potentially an Administration could be led by him and his cronies.

    Nabkow –

    Isn’t everyone? 😉


    For some its about making mud stick, but for most it about discovering the real Obama, not the romanticised version in his autobiographies. (Considering up until running for president he’s done little, he found a lot to write about that tells us noting about him as a man.)I too would discard publications that lean to far in either direction, however I always keep in mind that if a something comes from such a source, it doesn’t mean its wrong.

  41. Lefty E

    Well, I guess you’ll find out when Obama’s elected, Nanue. 🙂
    In any case, McCain **could** be a deep cover Vietnamese agent.
    Which makes it a tough election for the concerned-about-silly-rumours.

  42. wizofaus

    Nanuestalker, because you’d like to explain how you feel an example of “poor judgement” is not an example of a “mistake”.

    Any way you look at it, if this is the worst mud you can stick to Obama, he still comes out a darn sight more preferable than McCain.

  43. nanuestalker

    Lefty –
    Doesn’t that say something? People are prepared to vote for someone they don’t know anything about. We know more about Palin than we do Obama and she’s only been in the public eye a few weeks in this campaign. Obama’s cronies aren’t rumour. Seriously, who is he and what has he ever done apart from write about himself and give a few speeches.

    McCain isn’t a Vietnamese agent btw, I think! 🙂

  44. Down and Out of Sài Gòn

    Concern troll is really concerned.

  45. Bernice

    Gunna say something really relativist here. It revolves around that hoary old chestnut – one person’s terrorist is another person’s freedom fighter. Place the WU in context – over 1500 attacks upon military and government installations occurred in the US during the 1960s and early 1970s. The vast vast majority of these attacks were not the work of “organised” groups such as WU but quite random in nature and planning. The militancy of these acts reflected a social and political reality of a nation at war, and deeply held opposition to that reality.

    Secondly, Ayers was appointed to academic positions and political appointments not by Obama, but by his peers and political leaders. It is not Obama’s question to answer as to whether Ayers should have or should now hold those roles. As to whether Obama should have not associated with Ayers AT ALL is simply naive – given his role in Chicago politics, professionally Obama could not have ignored him. As to whether he should have a personal friendship with Ayers? If he was all canny politician,then certainly not. But presumably Ayers no longer builds homemade bombs otherwise he’d be sitting in that Club Med of US Detention in sunny Cuba, so is reform then not possible? Is redemption only a GOP thing to give?

  46. nanuestalker

    Down & out –

    A rather pathetic attempt to detract from the discussion. Great contribution to a civil & rational discussion. Have you anymore or are you going to use this one liner continiously.

    Bernice –

    I wouldn’t give a toss about Ayers acts in the 60’s except that he expressed regret that he didn’t do more rather than regret about the bombing and those who were hurt. I think its unfortunate that because of his notoriety, he has managed to make a career out of his WU days.
    I don’t think that Obama’s religious views or political views are a problem. There’s nothing new there, he’s not change, but he’s overly liberal in his choice of associates. From memory Hillary couldn’t properly challenge him about Ayers because Bill Clinton had pardoned members of the WU. Someone like Ayers should never have the ear of a president. He hasn’t redeemed himself in anyway, Cuba would be a good place for rehabilitation. Obama needs to do more than say I was eight when that happened. 9/11 was years ago too, lest we forget.

  47. epicene

    Thanks Bernice for putting some context of the 60s & WU, li’l things like the Vuetnam war, Jim Crow still rampant, anyone who wasn’t radical then was a waste of oxygen. Unfortunately most of them became Congressman (sic!).
    To quote Rob Zimmerman, of aluminium walking frame fame, “You don’t need a Weatherman to know which way the wind blows..”. Never mind that he had Dow Chemical shares at the time.

  48. Don Wigan

    ” Obama hasn’t made any noteworthy judgment calls, often electing to vote present on the sticky issues in the senate. As much as you may have the audacity to hope you cam, you can’t determine his competency from his judgment in hindsight & political rhetoric…”

    Nanue, true we may not know enough about Obama, although first Team Clinton and then the Republican smear machine have done their best to change that.

    We do, however, know several important things about him: He is not George Bush. He is not Dick Cheney. He is not John McCain and he is not Sarah Palin. After the last 8 years, that has surely got to be something desirable.

  49. Lefty E

    I do hope he’s a black radical, Nanue – but I suspect I’ll be disappointed.

  50. Adrien

    At last. It’s time the Good Guys got back on.
    Obama is evil. He’s got a funny name. He once caught a bus from a stop where gang members have also been known to catch a bus from!!!!!
    He might not be a terrorist but he lives on the same planet as Osama bin Laden. And there’s only one measly letter difference in their names. What does that tell you.
    He showers in the nude – disgusting.

  51. Nanuestalker

    Don –

    That I can understand, but I do think history won’t attribute so much blame on the Bush and will be generally kinder to him. I never was in favor of the war, but I didn’t have to make the call or vote on it much like Obama, it was easy for me to sit on the fence.

    I think one of the reasons the GOP struggled with finding candidates was that they knew the election was the Dems to lose, as the wartime Administrations lose following wars. {The Bush’s are the first Republician Presidents to bring their country to war I think and both involved Iraq. That every war from the civil war in the 1860’s to Vietnam in the 1960’s)

    The Dems on the other hand produced a beacon, stay away from there and come here. I want to know where here & there are?

    Lefty –

    Could make it interesting, it really worked well elsewhere! 😉

    Adrien –

    Shut up commie! Obama never caught a bus, he has been to busy throwing people under it. 🙂

  52. Adrien

    Once! When he was reading the Bible – He sneezed!!!!!!!
    Egad. He’s Satan man. He’s Beelzebub. He’s Innana’s dameonic hordes! Save America, save the military-industrial complex. Vote for the next 100 Years War. After all the last one was so much fun. Just ask Jeanne d’Arc.

  53. Adrien

    Obama never caught a bus, he has been to busy throwing people under it.
    OMG! That’s right. He kicks his grandmother too. And on the week-ends he goes to the pet stores, buys kittens and comes home and makes smoothies out of them.

  54. Nanuestalker

    He kicks his grandmother too. And on the week-ends he goes to the pet stores, buys kittens and comes home and makes smoothies out of them.

    C’mon, that’s not fair he was only eight when he did that! 😮

    The point is Adrien, his message of change is proved to be bullshit, he’s a typical Chicago politician. What’s his true manifesto?

  55. General Mistake

    “as the wartime Administrations lose following wars”

    Except of course for the War of 1812, Civil War, Spanish-American War, World War 2 and the Korean War. And lots and lots of minor ones.

    The other theory is of course that people may just be sick and tired of eight years of Republican incompetence and corruption.

  56. Down and Out of Sài Gòn

    A rather pathetic attempt to detract from the discussion. Great contribution to a civil & rational discussion. Have you anymore or are you going to use this one liner continiously.

    Since you ask, I have no problem with honest doubt about Obama. I have lots of doubts myself – his chronic and unsuitable attempts at bipartisanship, for one… and my suspicion that he’s a bit lacking in Oz-style “social democracy”. Other people also have doubts.

    However, I have little tolerance for suspiciously persistent equivocation. “Who is he really?… [F]or most it about discovering the real Obama, not the romanticised version in his autobiographies… We know more about Palin than we do Obama and she’s only been in the public eye a few weeks in this campaign… If Obama is elected president, will he make the same errors in judgement…” Well, why don’t you Google and find our as much as you can rather than muddying the waters with a lot of half-masticated talking points and poorly researched questions?

    BTW: any relation?

  57. Nanuestalker

    General Mistake –

    Civil War …Dem to Rep, WW11 Korea & Vietnam likewise.

    With the exception of Madison serving a second term for the “Don’t know if I’m a Rep or Dem party”, and the Spainish-American war that lasted five minutes, your point is?

    Down & out –

    What you have the Clinton dont as don’t tell policy in play for Obama. He might be but we’d rather not know. I suspect speaking unequivocally would be a rarity for Obama & his supporters wouldn’t it? Sounds great though.

  58. Nanuestalker

    hmmm….don’t ask, don’t tell policy

  59. Adrien

    What’s his true manifesto?
    Isn’t that a contradiction in terms?
    I have my doubts that Obama’s going to be as effective as he seems to think he is. On the other hand he’s far from typical. At the very least he has the aura of Mythology about him. Like Reagan and JFK he may actually create such an aura. Probably, like those gentlemen, his reality will be somewhat more mixed and fall inevitably short.
    Still it’d be nice if you waited ’til he was at least doing the job before you made up your mind.

  60. General Mistake

    “Civil War …Dem to Rep, WW11 Korea”

    OK I misplaced Lincoln’s relection date. But for WW2 and Korea the governing Presidential party was relected after the war ended.

    My point is that your point has as many exceptions as it does examples. So it’s not really a point at all but an attempt to spin Obama’s lead as some kind historical determinist outcome rather than the fact that a majority of voters just don’t think much of the alternative.

  61. Adrien

    I have lots of doubts myself – his chronic and unsuitable attempts at bipartisanship, for one… and my suspicion that he’s a bit lacking in Oz-style “social democracy”.
    I’m not certain his attempts at bipartisanship are unsuitable. Bipartisanship is effectively entrenched. The American system like ours shows far more continuity than otherwise in-house. The fierce partisanship is generated to shore up entrenched loyalty which does the citizenry more hard than good. Ideological conflict is an illusion. There’s only one applied ideology and it’s a technocratic corporatism.
    The US lacks social-democracy Oz-style or any other style. They started as a Calvinist colony and a lure for get-rich adventurism. We started as a lumpenprol jail that evolved into a “Paradise of Labour”. They see their political leaders as virtuous and god-like or the other extreme. We see them as dodgy hacks who might be capable of doing a job of work once in a while.
    Obama’s bipartisanship seems to be an attempt to glean good minds and good ideas from across the spectrum. Whether this turns out to be brilliance, effectual or otherwise, or more Clintonian triangulated Corporate felatio, well we’ll see.

  62. General Mistake

    “Civil War …Dem to Rep”

    And Andrew Johnson wasn’t reelected after the Civil War. The first elected President after Lincoln was another Republican.

  63. Katz

    Doesn’t that say something? People are prepared to vote for someone they don’t know anything about. We know more about Palin than we do Obama and she’s only been in the public eye a few weeks in this campaign. Obama’s cronies aren’t rumour. Seriously, who is he and what has he ever done apart from write about himself and give a few speeches.


    If you were really more concerned than you were keen to troll, you’d recognise that the problem you see brewing in the US is that American voters have bought the Obama message.

    You’d act on that concern by seeking to talk to actual American voters.

    Granted, the occasional American voter does chance by this site. But most of us here are Australians. Many do have a spectatorial interest in US elections. But virtually none of us are entitled to vote in the US.

    Your concern would be better focussed were you to comment on some sites where US voters are not a rarity.

    Or is trolling your thing?

  64. Nanuestalker

    I was mixed up as well, FDR died before the war in the pacific ended and his successor Truman was succeeded by Eisenhower who promised to end the Korean war. My point was in reference to unpopular wars anyway.


    true manifesto an political oxymoron! 🙂

    Still it’d be nice if Obama waited ’til he was at least doing the job before he made his hope & change message up. 🙂

    I think they’re as bad as each other myself, the choice of candidates was pretty ordinary.

  65. Nanuestalker


    Just answer the question rather than calling me a troll.

    Besides this thread is about Ayers and Obama and the gloves being off.

  66. Kemu

    The quality of discussion here invariably takes a serious dive every time Nanuestalker intervenes.

  67. Nanuestalker

    Too challenging, much easier to have a back slapping agreement I guess! LOL!

  68. Lefty E

    Yeah, its like a bee hive around here Nanue. You’re right – just cos something is an alleged ‘rumour’, doesnt mean we shouldnt be concerned, and seek to discover more.

    And the more I think on it, the more I do think its likely Obama is a black radical Muslim, and McCain is a deep cover Communist agent; as you suggest . After all, what do we really know about either of them? Thanks for opening my eyes!

    I only wish some others here weren’t so blinkered.

  69. CK

    Don’t worry about it. McCain’s trashed his brand, run an appailin’ campaign, and the polls indicate fairly consistently he will be soundly trounced on Nov 4.

    Why else does anybody think he’s gone down this road? There’s nothing left.

  70. Cornstalker

    It seems to me that you don’t need to be a Weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

  71. Nanuestalker

    Hmmm, lost that post…short post’n…..

    Lefty –
    I haven’t suggested anything…do you want to share?


    Where the wind blows! Your point?

    To All-

    So Obambi represents?????

  72. Nanuestalker

    I’ll answer if you want..change?
    What’s that?

  73. Kim

    Yay! Endless repetition of Republican talking points!

    Bored now.

  74. Nanuestalker

    So am I Kim,
    whats the message I can believe ?!?!?

  75. Nanuestalker

    I’ll answer if you want…
    Same old.same old!

  76. Mark

    Same old what, Nanuestalker? Same old grumpy white guy? Same old Republican noise machine?

  77. Nanuestalker

    Same old party politics…you must have got that! You have right?

  78. Nanuestalker

    I’ll make a deal with you Mark..introduce a thread that isn’t sound-bite leaning and I’ll do more that react to diatribe

  79. Ambigulous

    Lefty E
    “McCain is a deep cover Communist agent”

    Ah, like The Manchurian Candidate. So, at some point his brainwasher master will use a cue to switch on the commie automaton. But in whose interest? The North Vietname Army (NVA)? No, they’ve gone soft, with wishy-washy economic reforms.

    Chinese? Capitalist-roaders!!

    Nepali Maoists? Now you’re talking, comrade.
    Or dwindling Shining Path acolytes in Peru….

    First armed inteventions by Pres McCain: Kathmandu, to shore up a “peoples'” putsch, and Peruvian jungles to assist cocaine-trading armed Maoists. It’ll make for an interesting 2009.

  80. Patrick B

    Here Nanu, for your edification:


  81. Patrick B

    “introduce a thread that isn’t sound-bite leaning”

    That’s rich! You never contribute more that 25 words and most of those a taken from the Republicans running sheet.

  82. adrian

    “You never contribute more that 25 words…”

    And for that we are all eternally grateful.

  83. Lefty E

    Yes, I beleive McCain and Bush are part of a global conspiracy to undermine finance capitalism, and replace it with state run enterprise. I belive the last two weeks bear out my concerns, and those of you who remain blind to these deep cover Keynesians in Reaganite clothing have your heads in the sand. As Nanue rightly says, Who are these people really?

  84. Patrick B

    “And for that we are all eternally grateful.”

    Careful, he’ll accuse you of wanting to stifle free speech.

  85. Ambigulous

    Make up your mind, Lefty E.

    Are they deep-cover Keynesians or out-and-out commies? I think Uncle Joe’s shade would be offended to be called a Keynesian. John Maynard dabbled in the stock market, after all.

    Or could McCain’s Cabinet turn out to be a broad left coalition dominated by Galbraithian Keynesians, but with the Maoists in charge of the Pentagon: invading Nepal, Peru etc.? Forcing those turncoats in Beijing to roll back the capitalist tide…..

    You’re onto something. Or else you’re on something.

  86. Ambigulous

    and if I wanted to learn about the future of capitalism, Scott B would not be my first choice… http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/capitalism-in-crisis-20081007-4vt5.html

  87. Lefty E

    No no, I take Nanue’s point, Ambi. Its important not to let times of national crisis distract you from fully road-testing all whacky and pointless conspiracy theories.
    Oh look, UFOs.

  88. Shaun

    Those are not UFOs. They are streetlights. Nothing to see here. Please move along.

  89. Tyro Rex

    Yeah, Let’s get nasty.

    1. Palin consorts with violent separtists. This did not happen five or ten years ago. She addressed their conference *THIS YEAR* and told them to keep up the ‘good work’. This organisation was founded by a guy who was murdered whilst he was buying plastic explosives. He was buried in Canada because he didn’t want to be buried under that “damn flag” (meaning the US flag). They are practically the definition of American traitors.

    2. Mccain’s record as a navy pilot is abysmal. He only kept flying because he was the grandson of a distinguished WW2 admiral. In fact he only even managed to pass Anapolis because of his father and grandfather. He was rather less than an ordinary officer – 3rd bottom of his class. His experience as a POW is also not the wya it is celebrated in the media. The point of this, his war experience is not so exceptional as he likes to make out. He has cruised alone his entire life living off his grandfather’s reputation and his second wife’s money.

    We are not talking about licit meetings on community boards or introductions to some local power-brokers. We are talking about two people with lifelong personal failings and a record of long-term consorting with known traitors and fraudsters. And then they consistently exaggerate and lie about their experiences. Neither person is of fit enough character to be allowed to run the most powerful nation ever to exist on earth.

    Yeah, lets talk nasty, by all means.

  90. Adrien

    Stalker – I think they’re as bad as each other myself, the choice of candidates was pretty ordinary.
    I’m doing a little research into the Reagan myth at the moment. Along with JFK, Reagan’s the postmodern mythical prez. In both cases objective analysis is difficult because of the Cult of the President which requires that supporters raise ’em to Demi-Gods and detractors place ’em down with the Demon Kings. The result is that they’re over-rated as extraordinarily good or bad. Neither Reagan or Kennedy was what people say they were.
    Except insofar as they were extraordinary, somehow.
    Obama is likewise not ordinary. You may disagree with his views but objective indicators point to someone extraordinary. His presentation at the very least is extraoridnary. And he’s come to the presidency very quickly and in a straight line. That’s of course not necessarily a good thing.
    I don’t think he’s capable of doing what his cult-followers seem to think he is. He does want to wean America off its addiction to oil. That’s hard enough. And needs a longer period than he’s got assuming he’s elected and re-elected. Still it’s gotta be done. Still it’s gotta be done. I’ve seen this before and it ends badly. When you get to the edge of a cliff you back off.
    BTW I really don’t see any evidence that you’re trolling. Do people know what trolling actually means?

  91. Adrien

    Get it straight people, Obama is the son of Lucifer. Here’s the proof:
    He has gangster connections. He was seen in Little Italy once. You know what that means? And he’s got Goodfellas on DVD. The deluxe edition with the Henry Hill voice-over track. Wake up!
    He plays golf in places with lots of small furry animals. There’s probably more to the small furry animals story. We don;t know what he gets up to when he’s ‘looking for his ball in the shrubbery’. Stay tuned to Michael Savage’s radio programme.
    I’m not sure but I suspect that he’s not a pure waspish Knickerbocker. He might even be refused membership at my country club. Do we really trust a guy like that?
    There doesn’t seem to be anyone he hates. What kind of president is that?
    Apparently his wife has seen him naked. Shocking!

  92. jane

    Adrien, it’s just a pity he’s not friends with that nice bin Laden family. It would make him sooo much more acceptable to the GOP crowd and probably guarantee him membership at any country club you care to name.

  93. twinky winky pony palin

    And of course FDR and Chuchill associated with Stalin. Nixon associated with Mao Tse Tung. Eisenhower agreed to peace-talks with Nazis and North Korea. Therefore they all condoned mass murder. QED.

  94. General Mistake

    My thumbnails of the current cast of Prez Idol ’08.

    Obama: A very smart and ruthless Chicago pollie who once in power will turn out to be business as usual (which would make a refreshing change from the last eight years of utterly incompetent business as unusual)

    McCain: A grumpy old ex-princeling who thinks he’s owed the Oval Office because of the terrible things he’s suffered on his country’s service. Once there, fuck it. The lobbyists can run wild as long he gets to hear ‘Hail To Chief’ every day.

    Palin: Richard Nixon in drag. Without the brains. Seriously monitoring McCain’s health and polling.

    Biden: Still can’t believe his luck that his undistinguished career suddenly gets a second act.

    These days I’d rather a competent focussed careerist in charge of anything than clapped out timeservers or ambitious ideologues.

  95. Nabakov

    “Biden: Still can’t believe his luck that his undistinguished career suddenly gets a second act.”

    Mind you, they said similar things about Harry Truman before FDR’s brain popped like a champagne bottle..

    Mind, mind you, what exactly was so good about Harry’s oval career anyway? Not winning Korea and establishing the CIA?

    And um… General Mistake above is also me. With my undies on my head.

  96. Nabakov

    “Nixon associated with Mao Tse Tung.”

    Wicked point there twinky. I don’t see certain oft vocal parties rushing to condemn tricky Dicky for cozening up to one of the worst mass murderers in history. I guess some realpolitick is more real than another.

  97. Katz

    I don’t know about that Nabs.

    The sight of a mad and senile McCain reprising King Lear to Moose Palin’s Regan/Goneril would provide a fittingly tragico-farcical foreground to the scenes of American collapse surrounding them.

    Think about the poignancy. To his dying breath McCain/Lear would cling adamantly to the illusion that Palin/Regan/Goneril was in fact the faithful Cordelia.

    Not a dry eye in the burning house.

  98. Nabakov

    “The sight of a mad and senile McCain reprising King Lear to Moose Palin’s Regan/Goneril would provide a fittingly tragico-farcical foreground to the scenes of American collapse surrounding them.”

    Oh she’ll be back in 2012. But not before a “You don’t have Nixon to kick around anymore” moment.
    And then flame out like Goldwater in ’64. I think the majority of the US electorate has pretty much had it with faux conviction politics. They just want a return to “normalcy”.

    Although Goldwater by all accounts was genuine in his beliefs and a gentleman too. Which you could never say of Palin.

  99. Pavlov's Cat

    Oh she’ll be back in 2012.

    So will Hillary.


  100. Nabakov

    “So will Hillary.”

    You reckon Obamara will be a one term President? I suppose it’s quite possible. Strange days are ahead for the American body politic. Each election is gonna get weirder than the last.

  101. Nabakov

    “Each election is gonna get weirder than the last.”

    Speaking of which, there’s a great line in Bruce Sterling’s Distraction, set in a US 35 years from now which is dismantling and reshaping itself like the USSR in the early 1990s, where the incoming President, a billionaire Amerindian right wing populist Democrat timber baron from Colorado says to another character (and I paraphrase here) – “I’ve only got two months in office max before this administration gets hamstrung like every other by the usual circus of special investigations and inquiries. So I’m gonna act now even before I take the oath of office. That way I have maximum deniability.”

    Meanwhile a bankrupt US Air Force is running roadblock/cookie sales to pay for the power bills on its bases, charismatic Southern Governors are leading breakaway regions and hi-tech nomad tribes roam the greenhouse and dust bowl states. And what’s left of a coherent Federal Government tries to conduct a cold war with a Europe that barely notices and doesn’t care. While China has just flooded the internet with everyone’s data, utterly, completely and finally collapsing the notion of copyright,IP or privacy for ever.

    Most believable fictional future I’ve read so far. Certainly makes me hard to get excited anymore about the current Prez candidates’ pissweak suggestions for how to keep the US as it was for another four years.

  102. Kim

    Yeah – must reread that one before the first Tuesday in Nov!

  103. Nabakov

    Here’s a good extract from the opening chapter of ‘Distraction’.

    The first security shots showed a typical Massachusetts street crowd, people walking the street. Worcester was traditionally a rather tough and ugly town, but like many areas in the old industrial Northeast, Worcester had been rather picking up lately. Nobody in the crowd showed any signs of aggression or rage. Certainly nothing was going on that would provoke the attention of the authorities and their various forms of machine surveillance. Just normal people shopping, strolling. A line of bank customers doing business with a debit-card machine. A bus taking on and disgorging its passengers.

    Then, bit by bit, the street crowd became denser. There were more people in motion. And, although it was by no means easy to notice, more and more of these people were carrying valises, or knapsacks, or big jumbo-sized purses.

    Oscar knew very well that these very normal-looking people were linked in conspiracy. The thing that truly roused his admiration was the absolute brilliance of the way they were dressed, the utter dullness and nonchalance of their comportment. They were definitely not natives of Worcester, Massachusetts, but each and every one was a cunning distillation of the public image of Worcester. They were all deliberate plants and ringers, but they were uncannily brilliant forgeries, strangers bent on destruction who were almost impossible to notice.

    They didn’t fit any known demographic profile of a troublemaker, or a criminal, or a violent radical. Any security measure that would have excluded them would have excluded everyone in town.

    Oscar assumed that they were all radical proles. Dissidents, autonomen, gypsies, leisure-union people. This was a reasonable assumption, since a quarter of the American population no longer had jobs. More than half of the people in modern America had given up on formal employment. The modern economy no longer generated many commercial roles that could occupy the time of people.

    With millions of people structurally uprooted, there wasn’t any lack of recruiting material for cults, prole gangs, and street mobs. Big mobs were common enough nowadays, but this May Day organization was not a mob. They weren’t a standard street gang or militia either. Because they weren’t saluting one another. There were no visible orders given or taken, no colors or hand signs, no visible hierarchy. They showed no signs of mutual recognition at all.

    In fact–Oscar had concluded this only after repeated close study of the tape–they weren’t even aware of one another’s existence as members of the same group. He further suspected that many of them–maybe most of them–didn’t know what they were about to do.

    Then, they all exploded into action. It was startling, even at the fifty-first viewing.

    Smoke bombs went off, veiling the street in mist. Purses and valises and backpacks yawned open, and their owners removed and deployed a previously invisible arsenal of drills, and bolt cutters, and pneumatic jacks. They marched through the puffing smoke and set to their work as if they demolished banks every day.

    A brown van ambled by, a van that bore no license plates. As it drove down the street every other vehicle stopped dead. None of those vehicles would ever move again, because their circuits had just been stripped by a high-frequency magnetic pulse, which, not coincidentally, had ruined all the financial hardware within the bank.

    The brown van departed, never to return. It was shortly replaced by a large, official-looking, hook-wielding tow truck. The tow truck bumped daintily over the pavement, hooked itself to the automatic teller machine, and yanked the entire armored machine from the wall in a cascade of broken bricks. Two random passersby deftly lashed the teller machine down with bungee cords. The tow truck then thoughtfully picked up a parked limousine belonging to a bank officer, and departed with that as well.

    At this point, the arm of a young man appeared in close-up. A strong brown hand depressed a button, and a can sprayed the lens of the security camera with paint. That was the end of the recorded surveillance footage.

    But it hadn’t been the end of the attack. The attackers hadn’t simply robbed the bank. They had carried off everything portable, including the security cameras, the carpets, the chairs, and the light and plumbing fixtures. The conspirators had deliberately punished the bank, for reasons best known to themselves, or to their unknown controllers. They had superglued doors and shattered windows, severed power and communications cables, poured stinking toxins into the wallspaces, concreted all the sinks and drains. In eight minutes, sixty people had ruined the building so thoroughly that it had to be condemned and later demolished.

    The ensuing criminal investigation had not managed to apprehend, convict, or even identify a single one of the “rioters.” Once fuller attention had been paid to the Worcester bank, a number of grave financial irregularities had surfaced. The scandal eventually led to the resignation of three Massachusetts state representatives and the jailing of four bank executives and the mayor of Worcester. The Worcester banking scandal had become a major issue in the ensuing U.S. Senate campaign.

    You think we’re not gonna start seeing that kinda flash mob stuff in real life?

  104. Katz

    2000: Republican thugs from all over descend on Florida to demand a stop to the infamous Gore/Bush recount.

  105. Lefty E

    Yes, it must be some comfort to our American friends that the worst US President of modern times wasn’t quite elected by them.

  106. Katz

    But Lefty, Bush won that election fair and square — 5 to 4.

  107. dj

    I second Nab’s recommendation of Distraction.

  108. Adrien

    And then flame out like Goldwater in ‘64. I think the majority of the US electorate has pretty much had it with faux conviction politics. They just want a return to “normalcy”.

    Who knows.
    The Religious Right took a beating in ’06. People might be sick of the Armageddon Mob. But there’s substantial section of the American population who believe nutso things. The Economic Shitfan that’s gonna spray everyone over the next little while may render Obama impotent viz changing the Energy Economy. Back in the late ’70s Carter told America it had to accept a reduced standard of living, cut down on its excessive consumption, kick the oil jag etc.
    Which is why they re-elected him in 1980, oh wait… Course Obama seems to be something Carter was not: effective.
    Palin’s a rookie. But relatively untainted. She might get a bit of grooming, a bit of smoothing out, a hook or some such and presto. Born Again Prez. There’s a heaps of others such willing to try it on.