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75 responses to “Australian Jews support Obama's MidEast Statement”

  1. Razor

    Democratic, as in DPRK.

  2. Down and Out of Sài Gòn

    I don’t know how much debate one can have on the topic. But I’ll try.

    “Palestinians must abandon violence.”

    Wrong. A certain level of violence is expected of any society. If you have a thief or a murderer in Gaza City or East Jerusalem, how are the authorities going to apprehend the individual? By strongly worded kum-ba-yas? A certain amount of violence is expected – subduing him or her if resisting arrest, for example.

    And what about shooting the buggers if they shoot back? Australia has a rep for killing mentally ill people via overreaction – five cops with guns versus one schizophrenic with a knife. It’s a little hypocritical for us to ask the Palestinians to eschew violence altogether.

    Now if the petition had stated “Palestinians and Israelis must abandon violence against civilians” , I’d be a lot better with that, for two reasons. Firstly, it is civilian-directed terrorism that I object to, such as letting off bombs in discos. Secondly, Israel has a habit of killing civilians as well. Look at the war earlier this year. Or remember the Deir Yassin massacre in 1948.

  3. Razor

    1948? Why so recent? Only 60 years ago? Why not something from the 13th Century perhaps?

    And as for your comment about violence – what? You think the Pallies think he was refering to late challenges on the football field?

  4. Down and Out of Sài Gòn

    1948? Why so recent? Only 60 years ago? Why not something from the 13th Century perhaps?

    And if you had a habit of reading what other people said, your sarcasm wouldn’t seem so ridiculous. If you look again, you will see the magic sentence “Look at the war earlier this year.”

    Oh, and “Democratic, as in DPRK”? Wrong. More like “Democratic, as in Meg Lees“.

  5. Razor

    “Democratic, as in Meg Lees“. – Highly representative of the community then. How many Defeatocrats in Federal Parliament now?

  6. Paul Norton

    Razor, your comments are not adding value to the discussion. Can you do something about that?

  7. John Ryan

    Ah the Israeli Propaganda Dept is quick off the mark these days,don’t say anything nasy about Israel,don’t you know the love this bit, Pallies, racist stereotyping or what.
    Wonder when the rest of the defense league will show up,but then if you say anything critical of Israel your anti-Semitic,but the stupid thing is both Palestinians and Jews are Semitic kinda strange.
    Still I suppose it helps keep the propaganda dept employed

  8. Down and Out of Sài Gòn

    Now you’re getting my point, Razor. 🙂

  9. John Pasant

    It’s a good idea, as the authors argue, to reject the failed policies of the past. Those failed policies include a two state solution which in my view legitimises the original and ongoing dispossession of the Palestinians and merely reinforces the bantustan status of Gaza and the West Bank. A democratic and secular Palestine for all who want to live there is a just and much more viable option, IMHO. (By the way in a blog piece I have written I think Obama’s speech was really just relaying the message to his dictators and puppets that it is business as usual.)

  10. Geoff Robinson

    On the ‘secular democratic state’:
    1. what if a majority of the population of such a state did not want it to be democratic or secular?
    2. what if members of such a state wanted to secede and establish a separate state of their own?

  11. Chav

    # 3. “1948? Why so recent? Only 60 years ago? Why not something from the 13th Century perhaps?”

    No wait Razor, let me guess, the state of Israel is based on a Jewish community that has lived in Palestine for thousands of years…?

  12. Golda

    Some people are so gullible.

    1. These signatories are less Jews than they are atheist socialists.

    2. There is no such place as ‘Palestine’ and has not been since 1948.

    Shalom.

  13. Chav

    “2. There is no such place as ‘Palestine’ and has not been since 1948.”

    For a ‘Land without a People’ they sure have had to kill a lot of..people.

  14. Katz

    [The Australian Jewish Democratic Society*] [together with other Jewish Australians who care greatly for both the future of Israel and the legitimate national aspirations of Palestinians**]

    Is any information available on the relative size of * and **?

  15. Razor

    Katz – numbers – think Democrats like Meg Lees!!! Get with the program. wot Depressed in Ho Chi Min City said.

  16. Golda

    Katz

    “and” means “Antony Loewenstein”. 😉

    Chav

    1. Your attempt at snark fails, as what you say has nothing to do with the fact that Palestine ceased to exist in 1948.

    2. “Without ‘A’ People” does not, and never has meant “without ‘ANY’ or even ‘MANY’ people”.

    Don’t let your antisemitism destroy your understanding of basic grammar and the English language.

  17. Razor

    Golda – I’m battingf for your team but I got to say there isn’t much anti-semitism around here. Anti-Israel – bucket loads. Pro-Pallies/Arabs – mounds of it. But not anti-semtism, generally.

    Cheers

    And for what it’s worth – Jordan is a Palestinian state and the (de-militarized)West Bank should go back to them and the Gaza strip and Sinai Peninsular are Eygypt’s and they need to take control. People living in those areas should become citizens of those countries.

  18. Golda

    Razor

    This “Chav” piece is a well known leading light of the anti-semitic Left.

  19. Chav

    Oh, I am? My Jewish comrades and friends might be surprised to hear that…

  20. Liam

    “Democratic” like Euston, IMO. Lefties condemning other lefties for not leftying correctly.
    Seems to me that the AJDS have skipped over the bit of Obama’s speech that was most resolutely, astoundingly, ahistorically wrong:

    Palestinians must abandon violence. Resistance through violence and killing is wrong, and it does not succeed. For centuries, black people in America suffered the lash of the whip as slaves and the humiliation of segregation. But it was not violence that won full and equal rights. It was a peaceful and determined insistence upon the ideals at the center of America’s founding. This same story can be told by people from South Africa to South Asia; from Eastern Europe to Indonesia. It’s a story with a simple truth: that violence is a dead end. It is a sign neither of courage nor power to shoot rockets at sleeping children, or to blow up old women on a bus. That’s not how moral authority is claimed; that’s how it is surrendered.

    I seem to recall reading about an end to slavery in the United States marked by half a decade of bloody fratricide. Of course violence works. Palestine’s violent groups aren’t claiming Martin Luther King Jr’s moral authority, they’re claiming John Brown’s, and Frederick Douglass’s.

  21. Golda

    Chev

    Re your Jewish pals, see point 1, post 12.

  22. Golda

    Razor

    With the exception of Chav, and the occasional one or two others, I agree with you entirely, on both LP not being an antisemtic place, and the Jordan point.

  23. Andos

    Geoff @ 10: that’s the problem with 3rd world societies (such as Gaza and the West Bank where people are building houses out of mud), you get a high birth rate… much higher than in an educated industrial society (like Israel).

    Result? Arabs outnumber Jews, by a wide margin. If arabs were allowed to vote, the Jewish government would lose.

    Solution? More of ‘Operation Cast Lead’.

  24. Chav

    And I’m anti-semitic because..?

  25. Golda

    Chav

    I would say probably because of your doctrinaire marxism.

  26. Andos

    Sorry, I meant to say “Operation Cast Lead.”

  27. Golda

    By that I mean rather than some nasty personal experience.

  28. Chav

    Why is Marxism anti-semitic Golda?

  29. Golda

    You will need to delve into the psychological legacy of Marx’s father’s conversion from Judaism to Christianity – in order to secure employment as a lawyer in the German civil service, which barred Jews at that time, despite the Marx’s being a long line of famous rabbis.

    I could explain more to you, but I am pushed for time. But just quickly:

    The psychological tension between the rich, long, and inescapable Jewish heritage the young Karl was steeped in as he grew up; his grandfather remained a prominent rabbi; and his mother did not convert, and her Jewish family were significant financial providers, as Karl was quite dissolute; these clashed mightily with the flippant conversion for purely utilitarian reasons and weighed heavily of young Karl’s psyche. His attempt and need to banish his Jewish ‘Other’ found outlet in his writings and his general world-view.

  30. Golda

    You will need to delve into the psychological legacy of Marx’s father’s conversion from Judaism to Christianity – in order to secure employment as a lawyer in the German civil service, which barred Jews at that time, despite the Marx’s being a long line of famous rabbis.

    I could explain more to you, but I am pushed for time. But just quickly:

    The psychological tension between the rich, long, and inescapable Jewish heritage the young Karl was steeped in as he grew up; his grandfather remained a prominent rabbi; and his mother did not convert, and her Jewish family were significant financial providers, as Karl was quite dissolute; these clashed mightily with the flippant conversion for purely utilitarian reasons and weighed heavily of young Karl’s psyche. His attempt and need to banish his Jewish ‘Other’ found outlet in his writings and his general world-view.

  31. Chav

    So, no books, leaflets or speeches attacking Jews as a race but rather your psychoanalytic interpretations of his childhood?

    Lucky no-one mentioned any of this to Trotsky, Rosa Luxemburg etc.

    Now, how to explain Marxists being among the first victims of the Holocaust…

  32. Golda

    If you are not even up to Year 11 high school history, I’m sorry, we’ll have to call it a night.

  33. Katz

    1. These signatories are less Jews than they are atheist socialists.

    So these folks suffer from diminished Jewishness.

    Interesting concept.

    Just one question, what sort of instrumentation is used to measure Jewish deficiency?

    Can Jewish Deficit Syndrome be cured?

  34. J

    Seems like a reasonable perspective!

  35. Pavlov's Cat

    This “Chav” piece is a well known leading light of the anti-semitic Left.

    “Piece”?

    Fark.

  36. GregM

    So, no books, leaflets or speeches attacking Jews as a race but rather your psychoanalytic interpretations of his childhood?

    Here we are, Chav. A link to Norm Geras’s site where he addresses the very issue on which you are ignorant, Marx’s anti-semitism.

    Now I know from a past exchange that you maintain your Marxist ideology while being totally bereft of any knowledge of anything that Marx ever wrote but I hope you’ll take the time to follow Norm’s link to Marx’s little opus On The Jewish Question. http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2009/05/marx-and-antisemitism.html

    You might learn something.

  37. PeterTB

    “i” before “e” except after “c”

    “piece”?

    Nark

  38. Pavlov's Cat

    No idea what you’re talking about, Peter TB. I was referring to the choice of word, not to the spelling of it.

  39. Peter Hollo

    Dear Golda,
    I’d say you make me embarrassed to be a Jew, but that’d be inaccurate. I don’t need to feel embarrassed about assholes like you.

    Love,
    An atheist Jew

  40. Katz

    Marx in the quoted extracts isn’t expressing anti-semitism.

    Anti-semitism refers to hatred or contempt for a (quasi) racial group.

    It is true, however, that Marx expresses contempt for purported cultural characteristics of Jewish people whom he implies behave in a certain way because of alleged unattractive aspects of their culture, not their race.

    It should be noted that Marx was an equal-opportunity hater of religious feelings, sentiments, institutions and ideas. Jews should not feel uniquely discriminated against by Marx on the basis of their religious culture.

  41. Down and Out of Sài Gòn

    People who want to make up their own mind about Marx’s alleged antisemitism can have a squiz at On The Jewish Question themselves.

    I read the later, controversial half roughly the same way as Katz. In the later part of the essay, Marx – uses Judaism (as in the religion, not the race) as an analogy for “huskerism”, and thus having yet another blast of capitalism. But his use is far removed from the external satanic conspiratorial straw figures found in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion:

    This is no isolated fact. The Jew has emancipated himself in a Jewish manner, not only because he has acquired financial power, but also because, through him and also apart from him, money has become a world power and the practical Jewish spirit has become the practical spirit of the Christian nations. The Jews have emancipated themselves insofar as the Christians have become Jews.

    Needless to say, that’s a pretty unpleasant way of make an analogy.

  42. No answer required

    Why do these discussions always dissolve into school-yard name calling. You’re an anti-semite. No, I’m not. Yes, you are!

  43. feral sparrowhawk

    If I can tear the conversation away from the oh so fascinating discussion of whether certain anonymous avatars and long dead polemicists are/were antisemitic, I think there is a much more interesting thing here. Michael Danby has said that he endorses the speech. Since the petition really does nothing more than that I think its really quite interesting to see the AJDS and Danby apparently on the same side.

    Perhaps this means that they’ve interpreted it differently – as usual Obama is very nuanced. The line about “continuing settlements” could be read as condemning new settlements, or the continuation of those already established.

    Alternatively has the ground shifted so much that even someone like Danby feels the need to get with the peace program? If so, where does this leave the extremists on the Israeli side? We’ll have some idea where it leaves the extremists on the other side when the results from the Iranian election are in. Hopefully the answer in both cases is “looking very isolated”.

  44. Paul Norton

    Returning to Golda #12, if atheism and socialism disqualify people from being considered authentically Jewish, we would have to conclude that a good many of the leading figures in the Zionist movement and a good many of the Jewish pioneers in Palestine in the first half of the 20th century were not authentically Jewish. And if being Marxist amounts to being anti-semitic, we would have to conclude that the many Jewish members of Marxist-based socialist movements and parties in central and eastern Europe in the same period, including not just Jewish Bolsheviks like Trotsky and Jewish revolutionaries like Rosa Luxemburg, but Jewish Mensheviks and Bundists in Russia and Jewish reformist social democrats in Germany, Austria, etc., were anti-semites.

  45. Paul Norton

    Also, the author of the AJDS petition, David Zyngier, first came to my attention in 1979 through an article he had published in the La Trobe University student newspaper, Rabelais, criticising the group Jews Against Zionism and Anti-Semitism and arguing strongly that Jews were a nation and had the right to national self-determination in the State of Israel.

    It is interesting that those commenters who dislike the petition from a self-described pro-Israel perspective are apparently unable to critique the petition on its merits.

  46. PatrickB

    Jeez Golda, you’re very 20th century, I’d like to see some evidence for this alleged antisemitism.

  47. Mercurius

    fs @ 43 — I was relieved when Michael Danby came out in support of the speech. It rather puts paid to any squawkers who want to insist that Obama’s program is somehow anti-Israel or anti-Zionist or anti-Semitic. Michael Danby would never support anything that was against Israel’s interests, and I’m willing to take his stance on this as a sign that Obama’s approach will work out well for Israel.

    Incidentally, “working out well for Israel” pretty much means working out well for Palestine too. They’re two sides of the same coin, and the only way one can benefit is if both benefit. Obama’s not playing this as zero-sum, he’s playing it as plus-plus : and that’s where the smart money should be.

    And Golda, please go and be Jewisher-than-thou somewhere else. With an attitude like yours, you could be mistaken for High Anglican! 😉 (/snark /snark /snark)

  48. Paul Norton

    Mercurius, it’s surreal, isn’t it, that a Jewish group can publish a petition in support of a speech by a US President, which is also publicly supported by Michael Danby, and the very first comment on this thread equates the group (and by implication Obama and Danby) with the most totalitarian Stalinist state of all time.

  49. Dan

    To suggest that liberal jews, or socialist jews are not really jewish is highly offensive, Golda. Strange to hear such a comment from someone crying “antisemite” about other peoples comments.

    Have you read much about the kibbutzniks? They started out as a combination of socialism and zionism, and many were secular. Would you belittle the people who made the desert bloom based on them having been secular jews or socialists?

    Im interested what great service to world jewry you have performed that gives you the right to pass judgement on the “jewishness” of others, Golda.

  50. Katz

    Have you read much about the kibbutzniks? They started out as a combination of socialism and zionism, and many were secular. Would you belittle the people who made the desert bloom based on them having been secular jews or socialists?

    Kibbutzniks = Likudniks’ useful idiots.

  51. furious balancing

    Thanks for posting this Paul Norton, I checked in last night and thought to myself, “this one got off to a particularly bad start”. I’m not a scholar or an academic, and had I posted a response, it would likely have been removed. I’m glad to see that others have said the things in rebuttal to Golda’s contributions that I don’t have the skills to articulate. cheers.

  52. Hal9000

    Back OT, I note that the petition’s edited version of Obama’s speech deletes the key words ‘occupation’ and ‘Palestine’, the inclusion of which constituted the entirety of what was original in it. These deletions are to be sure not accidental, for what remains is a limp-wristed call for ‘improvement’, ‘progress’ and a halt to ‘construction’ of the illegal colonies. Since these elements have been repeatedly agreed by successive Israeli governments who then blithely proceed to expopriate, opress and immiserate occupied territory residents, I fail to see that the exsanguinated wording used in the petition constitutes any kind of progress.

  53. Golda

    OK, a few here have heavily criticized me for things I have not said.

    Paul Norton

    Nowhere have I said anything about being ‘authentically Jewish’. What I did say was that that ragtag who typed their names on that ‘petition’ you seem to think is of such political and historical importance is that their socialism and atheism are more central to their identity, motivations, politics, than the fact their mother is Jewish.

    I did not say being a marxist means one is therefore anti-semitic, I was responding to one particular poster. As for your friends letters to the editor of a student newspaper thirty years ago, did you really type that? Get a life.

    Dan

    See above, plus I did not say anything about “liberal” Jews. I would also suggest to catch up on the history that has unfolded since the early days of socialist kibbutzism.

  54. Paul Norton

    Golda, I don’t actually know David Zyngier personally. What I wrote was that he is on the public record as a supporter of Jewish national self-determination and of Israel’s right to exist.

  55. adrian

    Golda, anybody who hasn’t yet learnt to use apostrophes properly shouldn’t be taken seriously, especially since their pompous tone and freely given gratuitous advice suggests that they think rather a lot of themselves.

  56. Figure.10

    There are JEWS in AUSTRALIA!!?!

    Wow. Awesome.

  57. Chav

    “I did not say being a marxist means one is therefore anti-semitic, I was responding to one particular poster.”

    Its nice to be special, if only in the mind of the accuser…

  58. Joachim of Fiore

    Golda says: Shalom.
    .
    Ironically of course.

  59. wbb

    i can’t find the iran election thread ? where do i put my searing analysis?

  60. Golda

    The real issue here is why has Paul Norton devoted a thread so breathlessly to a petition signed by “Jews”? Why has he focused on their being “Jewish” rather than their being socialists, for example? This reveals just a touch of disingenuousness, and perhaps compromised ethics.

    After all, it is hardly news that diaspora socialist atheists whose mothers happen to be Jewish, wet their pants if they sniff a possibility of Israel’s collapse.

    The tragic thing is that Obama’s speech is no different than every president’s since Jimmy Carter. From now on, he will not waste an extra second on the Palestinians. And why should he?

  61. Katz

    From now on, he will not waste an extra second on the Palestinians. And why should he?

    Because the US is much compromised in strategically the most important part of the world and severely weakened by a range of domestic and foreign policy blunders, most notably those made by the regime of George W. Bush, the US president least critical of all of right-wing, belligerent, revanchist Israeli regimes.

  62. wbb

    From now on, he will not waste an extra second on the Palestinians. And why should he?

    Coz he knows he has the support and good will of the most of the world in any endeavours in that direction.

  63. patrickm

    All wars come to an end.

    Once George W Bush announced that the West Bank was occupied territory, the war for greater Israel (started in 1967) was effectively declared by that US ruling elite lost. That loss is now being even more formalized by the alternative elite of 2009. The tweedledee-tweedledum parties that alternate ruling the lastsuperpower are in agreement. Both US parties have said there will be a two state solution based on the road map principles established under GWB.

    GWB was the first US President to use the words occupied territories in reference to the West Bank and Gaza; all the rest till that point, over about 40 years, had described them as disputed territories, yet to no great surprise for those paying attention Obama is sticking with the analysis of GWB.

    The brutally clear aggression and efforts toward the annexation of more territory for the Zionist project, with apartheid settlements and separate settler road networks together with the bulldozing of Palestinians homes and farms and businesses, is so revoltingly clear and the reality of the defeat in this war so stark, that no US president now really has a choice.

    Obama is simply following the path laid down by the realities of US interests as shown up for all to see after the attacks of 9/11 demonstrated the utter failure of the previous ‘realist’ policies. Just as the swamp must be drained to prevent the further mosquito attacks from the Jihadists so to the war for Greater Israel must be brought to an end.

    The territories are therefore no longer disputed in the eyes of the entire Security Council of the UN, rather they are occupied and it has been declared, by the biggest financial prop of Israel that this occupation must end and a Palestinian State will be established according to agreements as they stand in the road map!

    Yet we still have people commenting at sites like LP as if it is not the end stage for the war for greater Israel that we are talking about. As if it isn’t a defeat for Zionism or at best a defeat for the Zionist politics that launched the war and persisted with it all these years. It is as if the ‘facts on the ground’ are still facts on the ground in Gaza. They are not; they are gone with the wind; and so to US support and patience waiting for the required end.

    But for some (and most on this thread) it’s as if the troops are not entirely out of Lebanon and Egypt. It’s as if forty plus years of mainstream Zionist leadership is not ending in defeat, it’s as if anti Zionist Jews who have maintained all along that this defeat would occur are not being proven correct.

    The modern US policies are to work closely with the Dawa party in Iraq and to favor democracy over tyranny. They will now work with a Palestinian Authority-Government that includes Hamas. They will work with a Lebanon with Hezbollah in the Government.

    This US government will outlast the Israeli government and put on sufficient pressure to ensure that the tail does not wag the dog. People ought to keep in mind how long the Israeli governments have been holding together for during say the last decade or so. Netanyahu will be forced to do what must be done or the next Israeli PM will.

    We are observers of the end stages of a failed war of conquest. Yet we still hear the black knight declarations from the likes of Golda explaining how the defeat is not happening and how the US is really not interested in doing anything to genuinely end the war! As if this running sore is not a disaster to 21C US ME policies. The armless, legless knight made more sense than the Zionists ranting and raving about Iran and the US ruling elite explaining how they have striven for these forty plus years to bring about the establishment of a Palestinian state!

  64. Helen

    it is hardly news that diaspora socialist atheists whose mothers happen to be Jewish, wet their pants if they sniff a possibility of Israel’s collapse.

    Geez, hyperbolic much? What you are actually saying is that if these people, who have presumably the same social right to call themselves Jewish as you do, have a different outlook on the Israel/Palestine conflict, then you’ll redefine them as non-jews? This is mental contortionism on a grand scale.

  65. Golda

    Helen

    I can not find anything in your odd post that shows you have followed the thread and the discussion. So I will just have to leave you with your ignorance. Except for one point I can not leave. What could you possibly mean by a “social right,” especially as I have nowhere invoked any such right for myself?

    Perhaps this is a case of you should mind your own business.

  66. patrickm

    We shall see in a few hours if Netanyahu thinks that Obama is a lot more serious than Golda thinks. We can expect a lot of shouting about Iran to hide the looming defeat of a forty plus year war for Greater Israel.

    Ask yourself “how goes the war for Greater Israel”?

  67. Helen

    Sorry, Golda, but this is a public thread and the rest of us are allowed to parse your statements. Get over it. Also, my comment was limited to one sentence of yours not the entire thread. What other meaning could we put on “it is hardly news that diaspora socialist atheists whose mothers happen to be Jewish, wet their pants if they sniff a possibility of Israel’s collapse”, other than, “these people purport to have a right to comment as their families are Jewish, but because they are atheist / socialist we can denigrate and ignore them”?

  68. Paul Norton

    The real issue here is why has Paul Norton devoted a thread so breathlessly to a petition signed by “Jews”? Why has he focused on their being “Jewish” rather than their being socialists, for example? This reveals just a touch of disingenuousness, and perhaps compromised ethics.

    Golda, I posted about the petition at the request of a member of the AJDS who emailed it to me with that request. I am not vouchsafed any special insight into the ideological or religious proclivities – socialist, atheist or whatever – of the members of the Australian Jewish Democratic Society or the other signatories of the petition. I did not decide that the Australian Jewish Democratic Society should include the term “Jewish” in the title, nor I did decide that the title of the petition should refer to Australian Jews. It is not my business to decide such matters one way or the other. In fact it is not my place as a goyim to start second-guessing the right of AJDS members and other petitioners to identify as Jews and to draw attention to this identification in the title of the petition.

    Let us suppose a non-Jewish blogger were to blog supportively, with links, about an initiative of the Australia-Israel and Jewish Affairs Council. How would you, Golda, react if a left-wing commenter on that thread were to: (a) comment along the lines that the Jewish members of AIJAC are not motivated primarily by their identity, interests and values as Jews but by neoconservative ideology; and (b) accuse the blogger of disingenuousness and compromised ethics for not trying to second-guess the Jewish identification of members of AIJAC; yet (c) fail to engage in any way with the political or ethical substance of the AIJAC initiative? You would probably conclude that the commenter was a rude fool who was not engaging in conversation in good faith.

    Having drawn your attention to the mote in the eye of said hypothetical left-wing commenter, I hope I have enabled you to discern the beam in your own eye.

  69. furious balancing

    Helen – “these people purport to have a right to comment as their families are Jewish”.

    Actually he said because their “mothers are Jewish”. That is to say, Golda’s suggests an identifier of ‘Jewishness’ that is more rigid than the the Jewish State of Israel.

  70. patrickm

    Well what do you know! Netanyahu accepts that a two state solution has to be the basis of ending the war for greater Israel and that no more new offensive settlement activity will be undertaken. Obviously he thinks that Obama is a lot more serious than Golda thinks!

    ‘In his first major foreign policy speech since taking office, [ask yourself why has it taken him so long, when Obama from the other side of world has moved much sooner] the prime minister expressed support for a Palestinian state, said no new settlements would be built and Jerusalem will remain the capital of a unified Israel.’

    Obviously pigs might fly if one were to think this is a serious step towards even meeting with the Palestinians. The speech is only intended to stall and to cause problems for Obama as it highlights the extreme rightwing position that Obama took prior to his election supporting (for one whole day before he had to back down) the retention of East Jerusalem captured in 1967, a policy position well to the right of GWB and ludicrous to boot. But the important point is to note that Netanyahu IS in delay mode and conceding his positions as slowly as possible while the US (Obama with the approval of Condi Rice) is putting on the pressure.

    Nevertheless the Obama administration politely welcomed ‘the important step forward’ by Netanyahu, then restated the US position that “The president is committed to two states…” while elsewhere the real
    work goes on.

  71. Adrien

    Golda – Why has he focused on their being “Jewish” rather than their being socialists, for example? This reveals just a touch of disingenuousness, and perhaps compromised ethics.
    .
    Your asking of that question as if the answer were not entirely obvious is disingenuous. And what evidence have you for the AJDS’ views. May I remind you that the original Zionists were of the Left?
    .
    After all, it is hardly news that diaspora socialist atheists whose mothers happen to be Jewish, wet their pants if they sniff a possibility of Israel’s collapse.
    .
    Wet their pants in glee or fear?
    .
    And why should he?
    .
    They are people y’know. Unfortunately the moral test here goes unobserved by so many pro-Israel people. What’s to be done when you are the perpetrators of injustice?
    .
    Yes the Holocaust justifies a Jewish homeland but religion tells us where it should be. And where it should be is in a place people live regardless the political taxonomy. Unfortunately for those who like their moral choices straightforward and simple, these people were not responsible for the Shoah.
    .
    Naturally for those who like their moral choices straightforward and simple the obvious tactic is to impose Manichean dichotomies and simply demonize the inconvenient people rendering them sub-human.
    .
    MMmmm methinks I’ve seen this somewhere before.

  72. Adrien

    Paul – Nice allusion to “The Sermon on the Mount” btw. Strange however that Abrahamic adherents seem to be kinda slack in this practice that them pagan infidel did quite well.
    .
    Funny old world innit?

  73. patrickm

    Googling around one finds some interesting MSM Israeli reports on Netanyahu’s speech that state it ‘drew sharp criticism from members of his own government and Likud Party. Israel’s Channel One television reported the Kadima party declared it would not remain in the government, and the Likud Party sought to convene an emergency faction meeting to vote on the speech.’

    Parliamentarian Aryeh Eldad said Netanyahu had lost the support of the national camp, and accused him of crossing all the red lines.
    “In saying a demilitarized Palestinian state, Netanyahu is trying to eat a pig that has been slaughtered in a kosher way. There is no such thing as a Palestinian state,” he told The Jerusalem Post.

    Palestinian Authority negotiator Saeb Erekat told Israeli television Netanyahu’s position will be impossible to accept. Netanyahu, he said, will have to wait 1,000 years before even one Palestinian will agree to negotiate with him. The Israeli prime minister spoke about a Palestinian state, but removed the status of Jerusalem and the refugee issue from the negotiations, he said.

    And of course…’Netanyahu maintained the biggest threat to Israel and the region remains Iran and the confluence of “radical Islamism and nuclear weaponry,”” the Post said.’

    Actually some Israeli’s think democracy in one country is the biggest threat to Israel and have memories long enough to recall the glory days of white ruled South Africa once supported by the US, Australia and Britain etc then not supported and now long gone with the wind.

    Never mind yet another main stream Zionist leader has declared support for a two state solution that the REST OF THE WORLD (including the opportunist lawyer following GWB’s policies) is insisting upon!

    So back to the question “how goes the war for Greater Israel”?

    Will Obama really expect Palestinians to accept ‘back of the bus status?’

    Can Netanyahu outlast Obama?

    Can Israel really wag the US while the US interests are being so blatantly harmed across the entire region?

    Can the revolutionary transformation of the Middle East, through the spread of bourgeois democracy, be slowed up much by a basket case economy where mass unemployment is spreading rapidly and that economy is so reliant on the worlds greatest debtor for financial support?

    How long will the Netanyahu government hold together under the kind of pressure that is now being applied?

    What of Livni and the Likudnik-‘milds’ of Kadima if we all have to wait for yet another government?

  74. patrickm

    The petitioners..’…strongly endorse the views recently expressed by the US President in Cairo. His words represent a sea change in approach to a conflict that has festered for so long that many of us have despaired of the possibility of finding a path to a resolution. His words articulate both the main elements of the conflict as understood by the Australian Jewish Democratic Society and a way forward to hope:’

    There is a complete blind spot to the reality that GWB through Condi Rice was pushing Olmert with the same demands! The only ‘sea change’ is that these Australians are now speaking up in support of the US moves to push for the end to the war for greater Israel that GWB was stalled on by a desperate Israeli government led by Olmert (mired in corruption scandals) that subsequently lost power after mass murdering Gazans for electoral reasons while Obama hid under a blanket excusing himself with there can only be one president at a time crap.

    It seems that Obama will get the credit for bringing peace and our petitioners will all forget what he declared before the election when he was still opportunistically looking for the Jewish vote. Obama took a position to the right of GWB! He had to back down in 24hrs!! Now he is doing no more than continuing the line set down by the real sea change in US policies that occurred under GWB in the wake of 9/11 and the dramatic failure of the previous ‘realist’ policies (particularly notable here was the Obama supporter Brezinsky!) No matter how much the Brezinky types want to return to the old policies of propping up every dictator and opposing the bourgeois democratic revolution and so forth Obama has no choice but to continue in the general direction laid down under Bush. There is no going back now in the wake of the full blown crisis of overproduction that will see weak links like Egypt and Iran spin right out of control!

    Obama is perhaps speeding up the reform of the military and the CIA etc who had been discrediting the war effort with the outrages of torture and Guantanamo etc but those reforms had been set in place under Bush. There’s a reason that Obama has kept the Defence Sec and the military command etc. What Obama thought wouldn’t work has worked and continues to be implemented.

    But defending Bush is not important, history can sort all that out. What is important is welcoming the Obama supporters who are now speaking up in support of the war effort in Afghanistan and supporting the Pakistani government as they with US and Australian support continue the war and broaden the scope of the war. The pseudoleft anti war movement has clearly split apart (as it has done after every major event that marks the new era of US ME policies since 9/11) and most are signing up to support the revolutionary war led by Obama with the support of the ALP government! They now support the bourgeois navy’s as they deal with piracy! Can’t wait to see the support later this year for the (once more) internationally observed Iraqi elections in complete contrast to what the anti-democrats are up to in Iran. Can’t wait to see the effect that will have across the border.

  75. windows 7

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