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160 responses to “Saturday Salon”

  1. William the Conjuror

    First.

  2. William the Conjuror

    First.

  3. Terangeree

    I second that.

  4. Terangeree

    I second that.

  5. CMMC

    Your weekend serving of hysterical anti-Labor rant, delivered fresh from the Murdoch asylum.

    http://news.google.com/news/story?pz=1&cf=all&ned=au&hl=en&topic=h&ncl=dbAOkM3TyIQedRMho5ObErVuLI6BM

  6. CMMC

    Your weekend serving of hysterical anti-Labor rant, delivered fresh from the Murdoch asylum.

    http://news.google.com/news/story?pz=1&cf=all&ned=au&hl=en&topic=h&ncl=dbAOkM3TyIQedRMho5ObErVuLI6BM

  7. PinkyOz

    CMMC @ 3 –

    I saw that, and boy what a piece. They start by suggesting it’s from a Former Labor insider, and it is, he just happens to be a mine executive as well.

    What a coincidence! Kevin has been talking about mines recently hasn’t he. 🙂

    PinkyOz

  8. PinkyOz

    CMMC @ 3 –

    I saw that, and boy what a piece. They start by suggesting it’s from a Former Labor insider, and it is, he just happens to be a mine executive as well.

    What a coincidence! Kevin has been talking about mines recently hasn’t he. 🙂

    PinkyOz

  9. TerjeP

    In the previous article we were talking about Danish fantasy land. My Dad is Danish so I’ve been to Denmark and the main fantacy land I saw was filled with lego. However they have another one that is full of wind. Denmark loves to build wind farms. They are expensive but Denmark is a rich country and wants to save the world. The trouble is it probably does the opposite. At least according to the following article.

    Subsidizing CO2 Emissions via Windpower: The Ultimate Irony
    http://www.masterresource.org/2010/06/subsidizing-co2-emissions/#more-10349

    In summary the study finds that wind power causes more CO2 to be emitted than it saves when we get to more than about 3% wind power in the grid. The reason being that it lowers the efficency of other electricity producers that rely on fossil fuels.

    Luckily for Denmark it is part of the European grid and can rely on neighbours such as Sweden and Germany for nuclear power. Maybe it is the nuclear power plants that absorb the inefficiency. However Australian wind play off against coal and gas. So if the article is correct then as Australia ramps up the number of wind farms not only are we flushing cash down the toilet but we may also be increasing our carbon foot print.

  10. TerjeP

    In the previous article we were talking about Danish fantasy land. My Dad is Danish so I’ve been to Denmark and the main fantacy land I saw was filled with lego. However they have another one that is full of wind. Denmark loves to build wind farms. They are expensive but Denmark is a rich country and wants to save the world. The trouble is it probably does the opposite. At least according to the following article.

    Subsidizing CO2 Emissions via Windpower: The Ultimate Irony
    http://www.masterresource.org/2010/06/subsidizing-co2-emissions/#more-10349

    In summary the study finds that wind power causes more CO2 to be emitted than it saves when we get to more than about 3% wind power in the grid. The reason being that it lowers the efficency of other electricity producers that rely on fossil fuels.

    Luckily for Denmark it is part of the European grid and can rely on neighbours such as Sweden and Germany for nuclear power. Maybe it is the nuclear power plants that absorb the inefficiency. However Australian wind play off against coal and gas. So if the article is correct then as Australia ramps up the number of wind farms not only are we flushing cash down the toilet but we may also be increasing our carbon foot print.

  11. FDB

    Terje – that analysis looks at two scenarios. One where some coal generation is phased out for high-efficiency gas, and one where some is phased out for wind. I’d have thought we’d get a more complete picture by looking at what might happen if fossil fuel generation was BOTH made more efficient, AND partly replaced with wind generation.

  12. FDB

    Terje – that analysis looks at two scenarios. One where some coal generation is phased out for high-efficiency gas, and one where some is phased out for wind. I’d have thought we’d get a more complete picture by looking at what might happen if fossil fuel generation was BOTH made more efficient, AND partly replaced with wind generation.

  13. CMMC

    It’s more than one article, currently 79 “stories” screaming “Rudd must go!”.

    It will keep building, with help from ABC/Fairfax, until tonight’s 6 PM TV news headline with it and tomorrow morning the hacks on Insiders will earnestly discuss it.

    Classic case of meme propagation.

  14. CMMC

    It’s more than one article, currently 79 “stories” screaming “Rudd must go!”.

    It will keep building, with help from ABC/Fairfax, until tonight’s 6 PM TV news headline with it and tomorrow morning the hacks on Insiders will earnestly discuss it.

    Classic case of meme propagation.

  15. nasking

    Anyone notice on Saturday Agenda w/ Peter van Onselen that Sky News has decided to transform into a Fox News clone?

    Basically van Onselen & Liberal Andrew Robb sounded like they were reading from the same script…Onselen came across like a Liberal advisor & PR man.

    And he & his panel had no qualms about doin’ a gangland murder (metaphorically) on Rudd & Labor.

    It was disgraceful stuff, but I would expect no less from those who work for the Murdoch empire.

    And no mention of the Morgan Poll…they just farted on about some didgy WA poll.

    Peter Van Onselen also writes for The Australian.

    He also doesn’t have the greatest track record when it comes to election predictions (click on the link):

    http://www.vexnews.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Wisdom-of-van-Onselen.pdf

    I think the Labor Party, and Rudd in particular, are being hit by the Murdoch media & Liberals w/ the grubbiest campaign in Australian history…much more to come I imagine.

    Rupert the Kingmaker wants his throne back.

    N’

  16. nasking

    Anyone notice on Saturday Agenda w/ Peter van Onselen that Sky News has decided to transform into a Fox News clone?

    Basically van Onselen & Liberal Andrew Robb sounded like they were reading from the same script…Onselen came across like a Liberal advisor & PR man.

    And he & his panel had no qualms about doin’ a gangland murder (metaphorically) on Rudd & Labor.

    It was disgraceful stuff, but I would expect no less from those who work for the Murdoch empire.

    And no mention of the Morgan Poll…they just farted on about some didgy WA poll.

    Peter Van Onselen also writes for The Australian.

    He also doesn’t have the greatest track record when it comes to election predictions (click on the link):

    http://www.vexnews.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Wisdom-of-van-Onselen.pdf

    I think the Labor Party, and Rudd in particular, are being hit by the Murdoch media & Liberals w/ the grubbiest campaign in Australian history…much more to come I imagine.

    Rupert the Kingmaker wants his throne back.

    N’

  17. wpd

    The former labor Minister in question Chairs Macarthur Coal and has a clear conflict of interest. Back in 2009 he said:

    It (an ETS) will erode our competitive position, while it does absolutely nothing to reduce greenhouse emissions,” he told The Australian.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/mining-energy/time-to-rethink-coal-chief-keith-de-lacy-tells-mate/story-e6frg9df-1225812592228

    One could add that the same person couldn’t make a success of a news agency in Cairns before entering Parliament and more recently Chaired Cubby Station into bankruptcy.

    Somehow I don’t think too many current Labor people will listen to Keith who BTW introduced Nuttal to Talbot.

  18. wpd

    The former labor Minister in question Chairs Macarthur Coal and has a clear conflict of interest. Back in 2009 he said:

    It (an ETS) will erode our competitive position, while it does absolutely nothing to reduce greenhouse emissions,” he told The Australian.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/mining-energy/time-to-rethink-coal-chief-keith-de-lacy-tells-mate/story-e6frg9df-1225812592228

    One could add that the same person couldn’t make a success of a news agency in Cairns before entering Parliament and more recently Chaired Cubby Station into bankruptcy.

    Somehow I don’t think too many current Labor people will listen to Keith who BTW introduced Nuttal to Talbot.

  19. TerjeP

    Wpd – an ETS does not even pass a cost benefit analysis.

    http://johnhumphreys.wordpress.com/2010/06/05/benefit-cost-analysis-for-the-ets/

  20. TerjeP

    Wpd – an ETS does not even pass a cost benefit analysis.

    http://johnhumphreys.wordpress.com/2010/06/05/benefit-cost-analysis-for-the-ets/

  21. TerjeP

    FDB – a fair point. However if your looking to reduce CO2 as cheap as possible (without going nuclear) then gas without wind is probably much more effective. Wind power just wastes money.

  22. TerjeP

    FDB – a fair point. However if your looking to reduce CO2 as cheap as possible (without going nuclear) then gas without wind is probably much more effective. Wind power just wastes money.

  23. Salient Green

    TerjeP, it is not the fault of wind power that highly efficient gas turbine technology has not kept up with the growth of zero emission technology in that start-up or cycle up times have not shortened to meet changes in demand as they are needed.

    To say that wind power causes more emissions than it saves because a utility chooses to use poor generation techniques as back up is nonsense. In fact, short start-up CCGT of 30-40 minutes is available and installed now so you can’t blame wind when it’s utilities who are choosing to use Open cycle GT.
    http://www.energynews24.com/2010/05/siemens-eon-inaugurate-efficient-ccgt-at-germanys-irsching-5

  24. Salient Green

    TerjeP, it is not the fault of wind power that highly efficient gas turbine technology has not kept up with the growth of zero emission technology in that start-up or cycle up times have not shortened to meet changes in demand as they are needed.

    To say that wind power causes more emissions than it saves because a utility chooses to use poor generation techniques as back up is nonsense. In fact, short start-up CCGT of 30-40 minutes is available and installed now so you can’t blame wind when it’s utilities who are choosing to use Open cycle GT.
    http://www.energynews24.com/2010/05/siemens-eon-inaugurate-efficient-ccgt-at-germanys-irsching-5

  25. Roger Jones

    Terje,

    I like how you’ve managed to breach the interface between the universe you inhabit and the one the rest of us live in. I understand that in your universe resources are unlimited, mass is not conserved (being subject to the assumptions of certain economic priors) and it’s inhabited by very few complex beings who manage to somehow expand their presence over our intertube system. Reminds me of Edwin Abbott Abbott. Those of us who are limited by time, space and the energy shared between biological systems, supplemented by our crude addition of stored energy in fossil fuels feel very inadequate.

    I think that your species inhabiting – shall I call it Libertaria? – are very selfish for keeping this bounty to yourselves and I’m sure many of us on the four-dimensional Earth really wouldn’t take up much space if you shared your incredible technology and open up Libertaria to us.

    I especially like how you’ve managed to develop cost-benefit analysis to something like string theory, where the M-space opened up between inputs, outputs and utility spreads across several universes. Breath-taking stuff.

    (Nurse, oxygen please)

  26. Roger Jones

    Terje,

    I like how you’ve managed to breach the interface between the universe you inhabit and the one the rest of us live in. I understand that in your universe resources are unlimited, mass is not conserved (being subject to the assumptions of certain economic priors) and it’s inhabited by very few complex beings who manage to somehow expand their presence over our intertube system. Reminds me of Edwin Abbott Abbott. Those of us who are limited by time, space and the energy shared between biological systems, supplemented by our crude addition of stored energy in fossil fuels feel very inadequate.

    I think that your species inhabiting – shall I call it Libertaria? – are very selfish for keeping this bounty to yourselves and I’m sure many of us on the four-dimensional Earth really wouldn’t take up much space if you shared your incredible technology and open up Libertaria to us.

    I especially like how you’ve managed to develop cost-benefit analysis to something like string theory, where the M-space opened up between inputs, outputs and utility spreads across several universes. Breath-taking stuff.

    (Nurse, oxygen please)

  27. TerjeP

    I reel in terror from your infinite wit. Must get back to own universe …. Arghhh I’m melting, arghhh.

    Idiot.

  28. TerjeP

    I reel in terror from your infinite wit. Must get back to own universe …. Arghhh I’m melting, arghhh.

    Idiot.

  29. Paul Burns

    The latest instalment of the Rudd/Conroy police state, undoubtedly supported by Abbott’s dancing chimpanzees.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/11/australia_data_retention/

    As for the mining super tax. I supporet it and Rudd should have just brought it in and told the mining companies to go fuck themselves. Instead, as usual, he’s getting utterly bogged down in “process”. This Preime Minister is rapidly approaching the incompetent – some one promoted beyond the level of his ability.

  30. Paul Burns

    The latest instalment of the Rudd/Conroy police state, undoubtedly supported by Abbott’s dancing chimpanzees.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/11/australia_data_retention/

    As for the mining super tax. I supporet it and Rudd should have just brought it in and told the mining companies to go fuck themselves. Instead, as usual, he’s getting utterly bogged down in “process”. This Preime Minister is rapidly approaching the incompetent – some one promoted beyond the level of his ability.

  31. David G

    I fear you are right, Paul! Being a diplomat perhaps makes you impotent because you are never able to say just what you think. So you dance around things, like the chimpanzees, and become expert at avoiding things rather than doing things.

    Rudd might suffer a nervous breakdown soon. Having a wife who is such a success won’t help him much!

  32. David G

    I fear you are right, Paul! Being a diplomat perhaps makes you impotent because you are never able to say just what you think. So you dance around things, like the chimpanzees, and become expert at avoiding things rather than doing things.

    Rudd might suffer a nervous breakdown soon. Having a wife who is such a success won’t help him much!

  33. kuke

    Thanks @9 wpd, you beat me to it. Keith De Lacy is utterly coalpromized.

  34. kuke

    Thanks @9 wpd, you beat me to it. Keith De Lacy is utterly coalpromized.

  35. Paul Burns

    David G @ 16,
    Indeed. (Though I don’t know about the comment re Therese.) I don’t want to be right. The last thing I want is an Abbott Government. They’ll be worse than Howard and just as evil. The only hope for the ALP is that they dump Rudd before the election and install Gillard. Currently she’s gone a bit wishy-washy, but I’ve now doubt if she became PM she’d get a bit of fire in her belly. Abbott would be toast. As it stands now, I don’t know what will happen at the next election. Its a real worry.
    I agree there’s been a horrendous press campagn against Rudd, the like of which we haven’t seen since Whitlam, but, apart from the problems with a hostile Senate, its all his own work. If he hadn’t dilly-dallied the way he has they wouldn’t have been able to touch him

  36. Paul Burns

    David G @ 16,
    Indeed. (Though I don’t know about the comment re Therese.) I don’t want to be right. The last thing I want is an Abbott Government. They’ll be worse than Howard and just as evil. The only hope for the ALP is that they dump Rudd before the election and install Gillard. Currently she’s gone a bit wishy-washy, but I’ve now doubt if she became PM she’d get a bit of fire in her belly. Abbott would be toast. As it stands now, I don’t know what will happen at the next election. Its a real worry.
    I agree there’s been a horrendous press campagn against Rudd, the like of which we haven’t seen since Whitlam, but, apart from the problems with a hostile Senate, its all his own work. If he hadn’t dilly-dallied the way he has they wouldn’t have been able to touch him

  37. Chris

    Paul @ 15 – I wish I knew where these stupid Internet related policies are coming from. The labor party does have mp’s who are cluey about this sort of thing.

    One of the big unintended consequences of this as well as the filter is that there is going to be a lot more encrypted traffic (from vpns). So not only is there going to be an increase in bandwidth requirements because fewer people are using local caches, but when police really do want to intercept data they’re going to need a building full of supercomputers to break the encryption in any reasonable time.

  38. Chris

    Paul @ 15 – I wish I knew where these stupid Internet related policies are coming from. The labor party does have mp’s who are cluey about this sort of thing.

    One of the big unintended consequences of this as well as the filter is that there is going to be a lot more encrypted traffic (from vpns). So not only is there going to be an increase in bandwidth requirements because fewer people are using local caches, but when police really do want to intercept data they’re going to need a building full of supercomputers to break the encryption in any reasonable time.

  39. CMMC

    4.30 AM, Monday morning SBS TV. Australia V Germany.

  40. CMMC

    4.30 AM, Monday morning SBS TV. Australia V Germany.

  41. nasking

    Found this interesting, posted at Australian Conservative:

    Peter van Onselen joins The Australian

    Paul Kelly and Peter van Onselen
    Political commentator and academic Peter van Onselen is joining The Australian as a contributing editor. The report in the Weekend Australian said “he will be working closely with editor-at-large Paul Kelly”. It kind of sounds like an apprenticeship in journalism ahead of a handover? It raises the questions of whether Kelly is going to follow Alan Ramsey into retirement and if van Onselen is possibly planning a permanent career transition.

    http://australianconservative.com/2009/03/peter-van-onselen-joins-the-australian/

    Going by van Onselen’s approach today I reckon he’d fit into that position like a glove…as ‘The Australian’ moves further & further to the RIGHT.

    And then he can come across as “balanced”. Like Kim Beazley would sound like a right-winger if he was speaking on a communist channel.

    N’

  42. nasking

    Found this interesting, posted at Australian Conservative:

    Peter van Onselen joins The Australian

    Paul Kelly and Peter van Onselen
    Political commentator and academic Peter van Onselen is joining The Australian as a contributing editor. The report in the Weekend Australian said “he will be working closely with editor-at-large Paul Kelly”. It kind of sounds like an apprenticeship in journalism ahead of a handover? It raises the questions of whether Kelly is going to follow Alan Ramsey into retirement and if van Onselen is possibly planning a permanent career transition.

    http://australianconservative.com/2009/03/peter-van-onselen-joins-the-australian/

    Going by van Onselen’s approach today I reckon he’d fit into that position like a glove…as ‘The Australian’ moves further & further to the RIGHT.

    And then he can come across as “balanced”. Like Kim Beazley would sound like a right-winger if he was speaking on a communist channel.

    N’

  43. Fran Barlow

    That’s all very well Salient, but the question surely needs to be asked. If these gas generators are 59.5% thermally efficient even when ramping up and don’t have their effective life shortened by this, what is the net contribution of wind to GHG reductions per unit of cost?

    Do these plants reamp up from white start or black start? i.e. How much shadowing is there? How does backing them off and thus lowering their capacity affect the running costs of the plant? If one considers wind + CCGT as a single system, how would it compare with a straight CCGT-only system in terms of costs per tonne of CO2 abated, taking into account connection fees to the grid?

  44. Fran Barlow

    That’s all very well Salient, but the question surely needs to be asked. If these gas generators are 59.5% thermally efficient even when ramping up and don’t have their effective life shortened by this, what is the net contribution of wind to GHG reductions per unit of cost?

    Do these plants reamp up from white start or black start? i.e. How much shadowing is there? How does backing them off and thus lowering their capacity affect the running costs of the plant? If one considers wind + CCGT as a single system, how would it compare with a straight CCGT-only system in terms of costs per tonne of CO2 abated, taking into account connection fees to the grid?

  45. Fran Barlow

    Beazley sounds like a rightwinger when speaking on mainstream channels. Almost everyone does, which is the sad part. There are very few left-of-centre commentators who feature regularly in the mainstream commercial media.

    They basically chew on the one side of their mouths and spit left.

  46. Fran Barlow

    Beazley sounds like a rightwinger when speaking on mainstream channels. Almost everyone does, which is the sad part. There are very few left-of-centre commentators who feature regularly in the mainstream commercial media.

    They basically chew on the one side of their mouths and spit left.

  47. rainbowdog

    Talking to a Federal Labour MP last night who said that it is ‘older blokes’in the electorate who complain about how much they dislike Rudd. I have also noticed this among friends and also publicly eg Singo and Jerry Norman et al.

    What’s the thing here? Rudd looks like the kind of bloke who, as a kid would have been picked on by bullies for his angelic looks, blonde hair, specs, conscientious work ethic, moderate habits, scholastic success, and, later, his ability to win a gorgeous woman as his wife.

    If it’s anger that drives Rudd, what drives his critics? – jealousy? fear of the ‘other’, of a bloke who’s not masculine enough?

  48. rainbowdog

    Talking to a Federal Labour MP last night who said that it is ‘older blokes’in the electorate who complain about how much they dislike Rudd. I have also noticed this among friends and also publicly eg Singo and Jerry Norman et al.

    What’s the thing here? Rudd looks like the kind of bloke who, as a kid would have been picked on by bullies for his angelic looks, blonde hair, specs, conscientious work ethic, moderate habits, scholastic success, and, later, his ability to win a gorgeous woman as his wife.

    If it’s anger that drives Rudd, what drives his critics? – jealousy? fear of the ‘other’, of a bloke who’s not masculine enough?

  49. sg

    oh look, terjep is talking gas and wind.

    My friend in Oz sent my partner melakamaronas. Too busy stuffing my face to argue about carbon.

  50. sg

    oh look, terjep is talking gas and wind.

    My friend in Oz sent my partner melakamaronas. Too busy stuffing my face to argue about carbon.

  51. Razor

    I am now officially fully supportive of the ALP retaining the RSPT in it’s current from as policy. After seeing what it is doing to their polling numbers I can’t see anything the Coalition doing could top the RSPT.

    Still the betting markets haven’t moved, yet.

  52. Razor

    I am now officially fully supportive of the ALP retaining the RSPT in it’s current from as policy. After seeing what it is doing to their polling numbers I can’t see anything the Coalition doing could top the RSPT.

    Still the betting markets haven’t moved, yet.

  53. Don Wigan

    “It will keep building, with help from ABC/Fairfax, until tonight’s 6 PM TV news headline with it …” #7

    You’re so right, CMMC. ABC Radio News on Classic-FM led their 7am news bulletin with a story that Rudd’s support in WA had dropped to 26% primary. Later on mentioned the source, a local poll of 400.

    Don’t think it would catch Possum’s attention for very long.

  54. Don Wigan

    “It will keep building, with help from ABC/Fairfax, until tonight’s 6 PM TV news headline with it …” #7

    You’re so right, CMMC. ABC Radio News on Classic-FM led their 7am news bulletin with a story that Rudd’s support in WA had dropped to 26% primary. Later on mentioned the source, a local poll of 400.

    Don’t think it would catch Possum’s attention for very long.

  55. Salient Green

    @22 you should read the entire study to see if your questions are answered and if not you can then wonder why not. If they are answered, you would have to wonder why the article didn’t include them.

    As wind generates no GHG’s and depletes no fossil fuels the very important truth to be gained from the study is that the technology for following wind is not as efficient as it could be in many cases.

  56. Salient Green

    @22 you should read the entire study to see if your questions are answered and if not you can then wonder why not. If they are answered, you would have to wonder why the article didn’t include them.

    As wind generates no GHG’s and depletes no fossil fuels the very important truth to be gained from the study is that the technology for following wind is not as efficient as it could be in many cases.

  57. Jacques Chester

    I wish I knew where these stupid Internet related policies are coming from.

    The filter is a bargaining chip. In the current senate it’s something they can use to string along Fielding. In the next senate it’s something they can drop in exchange for Green support on something.

    The data retention one is just flat out police-state bullshit. There’s never been a gross invasion of privacy that police don’t support. The thought that every ISP can be turned into a Stasi informant must be giving every member of the AFP a chubby.

    but when police really do want to intercept data they’re going to need a building full of supercomputers to break the encryption in any reasonable time.

    Currently, no amount of computing power can break modern encryption before the heat death of the universe.

  58. Jacques Chester

    I wish I knew where these stupid Internet related policies are coming from.

    The filter is a bargaining chip. In the current senate it’s something they can use to string along Fielding. In the next senate it’s something they can drop in exchange for Green support on something.

    The data retention one is just flat out police-state bullshit. There’s never been a gross invasion of privacy that police don’t support. The thought that every ISP can be turned into a Stasi informant must be giving every member of the AFP a chubby.

    but when police really do want to intercept data they’re going to need a building full of supercomputers to break the encryption in any reasonable time.

    Currently, no amount of computing power can break modern encryption before the heat death of the universe.

  59. Tim Macknay

    Razor, Labor’s polling collapse occurred before the RSPT imbroglio. It’s yet to be shown it has had any impact on the polls. Sure, it’s about as popular as syphilis in WA, but WA is utterly peripheral to the Federal election. Which is probably why Rudd and Co decided to take the risk of writing it off.

  60. Tim Macknay

    Razor, Labor’s polling collapse occurred before the RSPT imbroglio. It’s yet to be shown it has had any impact on the polls. Sure, it’s about as popular as syphilis in WA, but WA is utterly peripheral to the Federal election. Which is probably why Rudd and Co decided to take the risk of writing it off.

  61. Grigory M

    Paul Burns @ 15

    “undoubtedly supported by Abbott’s dancing chimpanzees”

    Que?

    David G @ 16

    “Having a wife who is such a success won’t help him much!”

    Maybe she owes much of her success to his help.

  62. Grigory M

    Paul Burns @ 15

    “undoubtedly supported by Abbott’s dancing chimpanzees”

    Que?

    David G @ 16

    “Having a wife who is such a success won’t help him much!”

    Maybe she owes much of her success to his help.

  63. Patricia WA

    I hope you’re right, Tim @ 29. Living here and seeing only the Australian and the West Australian at South Beach when I have my coffee and do their crosswords I could come away with an entirely distorted view of the world just looking at their headlines, they are so misleadingly and immorally presented. One could almost believe that the mining tax was about taxing our super funds and that our PM was a total nincompoop with thousands on the streets daily protesting his incompetence.

    In a way Rudd’s stellar support from the start and sustained for so long has been his undoing. That had to be addressed by the right! It has focussed the attention of his enemies entirely on bringing about his undoing. Easier by far to attack the man than his works.

  64. Patricia WA

    I hope you’re right, Tim @ 29. Living here and seeing only the Australian and the West Australian at South Beach when I have my coffee and do their crosswords I could come away with an entirely distorted view of the world just looking at their headlines, they are so misleadingly and immorally presented. One could almost believe that the mining tax was about taxing our super funds and that our PM was a total nincompoop with thousands on the streets daily protesting his incompetence.

    In a way Rudd’s stellar support from the start and sustained for so long has been his undoing. That had to be addressed by the right! It has focussed the attention of his enemies entirely on bringing about his undoing. Easier by far to attack the man than his works.

  65. dave

    Nice scouting Paul B. Jacques Chester I agree that encryption represents an obstacle to the imminent police state however much of public internet traffic is unencrypted.

    Paul, one thing I have observed in modern Politics is often the headlines and talking points obscure much of what goes on behind the scenes. Con-roy and his antics are quite likely a sop to Fielding but it’s interesting how often important issues such as this and it’s potential for a quasi-police state with regard to the flow of information arise during major public (read media driven) debate over other issues, such as in this case the Mining Tax.

    Once upon a time if some politician wanted to get the headlines going they would kick the abortion debate into gear, now with Labor public hew and cry over a matter of tax and equity masks behind the scenes moves that grant draconian powers to the police/spies in the name of combating terrorism (yeah right) and pornographers (how predictable).

    Of course decent law abiding citizens have nothing to worry about. I invite such citizens to visit Canberra and inspect the construction site for the new ASIO headquarters, a building site that dwarfs the size of Parliament House and rivals the size of the Defence Department.

  66. dave

    Nice scouting Paul B. Jacques Chester I agree that encryption represents an obstacle to the imminent police state however much of public internet traffic is unencrypted.

    Paul, one thing I have observed in modern Politics is often the headlines and talking points obscure much of what goes on behind the scenes. Con-roy and his antics are quite likely a sop to Fielding but it’s interesting how often important issues such as this and it’s potential for a quasi-police state with regard to the flow of information arise during major public (read media driven) debate over other issues, such as in this case the Mining Tax.

    Once upon a time if some politician wanted to get the headlines going they would kick the abortion debate into gear, now with Labor public hew and cry over a matter of tax and equity masks behind the scenes moves that grant draconian powers to the police/spies in the name of combating terrorism (yeah right) and pornographers (how predictable).

    Of course decent law abiding citizens have nothing to worry about. I invite such citizens to visit Canberra and inspect the construction site for the new ASIO headquarters, a building site that dwarfs the size of Parliament House and rivals the size of the Defence Department.

  67. Tyro Rex

    Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors
    An old idea in nuclear power gets reexamined
    Robert Hargraves and Ralph Moir
    http://www.energyfromthorium.com/forum/download/file.php?id=784

  68. Tyro Rex

    Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors
    An old idea in nuclear power gets reexamined
    Robert Hargraves and Ralph Moir
    http://www.energyfromthorium.com/forum/download/file.php?id=784

  69. silkworm

    A couple of days ago I heard Turnbull on morning TV mumbling about how the Rudd government was the worst government Australia has ever had, and I thought, oh yeah, and if we voted Rudd out and voted Abbott in we’d have a worse government still.

  70. silkworm

    A couple of days ago I heard Turnbull on morning TV mumbling about how the Rudd government was the worst government Australia has ever had, and I thought, oh yeah, and if we voted Rudd out and voted Abbott in we’d have a worse government still.

  71. Steve at the Pub

    Silkworm, how so?

  72. Steve at the Pub

    Silkworm, how so?

  73. Razor

    I am also now fully on board the Kevin Rudd 2010 train.

    Please, please, please don’t change him.

  74. Razor

    I am also now fully on board the Kevin Rudd 2010 train.

    Please, please, please don’t change him.

  75. kuke

    Is that a privatised coal train Razor?

  76. kuke

    Is that a privatised coal train Razor?

  77. john

    Actually, the thing about internet history retention is being examined by the Attorney-General’s department to bring in line our cyber crime measures with the rest of the world. It isn’t policy, or even proposed policy, it’s just public servants doing their jobs. THe quote from the department spokesperson was;

    ”The Attorney-General’s Department has been looking at the European Directive on Data Retention, to consider whether such a regime is appropriate within Australia’s law enforcement and security context.”

    Everyone on the internet needs to relax, and stop spewing about Stephen Conroy.

  78. john

    Actually, the thing about internet history retention is being examined by the Attorney-General’s department to bring in line our cyber crime measures with the rest of the world. It isn’t policy, or even proposed policy, it’s just public servants doing their jobs. THe quote from the department spokesperson was;

    ”The Attorney-General’s Department has been looking at the European Directive on Data Retention, to consider whether such a regime is appropriate within Australia’s law enforcement and security context.”

    Everyone on the internet needs to relax, and stop spewing about Stephen Conroy.

  79. Grigory M

    Maybe the last train, Kuke.

    Kevin 07, gone by 11. (as they say)

  80. Grigory M

    Maybe the last train, Kuke.

    Kevin 07, gone by 11. (as they say)

  81. Steve at the Pub

    Kuke #38:
    If it is on time, with no missing carriages, and costing less to run than the freight it is carrying, then yes.

  82. Steve at the Pub

    Kuke #38:
    If it is on time, with no missing carriages, and costing less to run than the freight it is carrying, then yes.

  83. Paul Burns

    Talked to a friend of mine very much up on Internet stuff. He reckons the ISPs would just not be able to hold that huge amount of traffic if they had to keep details of every users web browsing and e-mail traffic. The system would just break down. His solution: all ISP providers to tell Conroy to jump and shut down completely for 3 months. They would save more money in the end given how much retaining everyon’s data would cost. The scheme is unworkable, dreamt up by fools who don’t understand the internet.

  84. Paul Burns

    Talked to a friend of mine very much up on Internet stuff. He reckons the ISPs would just not be able to hold that huge amount of traffic if they had to keep details of every users web browsing and e-mail traffic. The system would just break down. His solution: all ISP providers to tell Conroy to jump and shut down completely for 3 months. They would save more money in the end given how much retaining everyon’s data would cost. The scheme is unworkable, dreamt up by fools who don’t understand the internet.

  85. William the Conjuror

    Julia Gillard: “the thing that matters is….working families”

    Mantra, mantra, mantra.

    What about working singles, unemployed families, unemployed singles, older Australians, etc?

    Don’t these fools realise how much the phrase “working families” grates on all the other Australians? Don’t they realise that every time they say it they turn people off?

  86. William the Conjuror

    Julia Gillard: “the thing that matters is….working families”

    Mantra, mantra, mantra.

    What about working singles, unemployed families, unemployed singles, older Australians, etc?

    Don’t these fools realise how much the phrase “working families” grates on all the other Australians? Don’t they realise that every time they say it they turn people off?

  87. Brian

    I’ve been meaning to post on the Gulf oil spill again but haven’t had time. Remember at first they reckoned it was 1,000 barrels per day leaking. That was revised upwards to 5,000 barrels. When they got to capturing 15,000 barrels per day they reckoned they were still about 5,000 barrels per day short. The latest is that the leak could be up to a little over 40,000 barrels per day.

    It seems that BP is having trouble seeing anything below the surface.

    Der Spiegel reports that researcher Samantha Joye put a bottle down a kilometre with predictable results.

  88. Brian

    I’ve been meaning to post on the Gulf oil spill again but haven’t had time. Remember at first they reckoned it was 1,000 barrels per day leaking. That was revised upwards to 5,000 barrels. When they got to capturing 15,000 barrels per day they reckoned they were still about 5,000 barrels per day short. The latest is that the leak could be up to a little over 40,000 barrels per day.

    It seems that BP is having trouble seeing anything below the surface.

    Der Spiegel reports that researcher Samantha Joye put a bottle down a kilometre with predictable results.

  89. Robert Merkel

    Encryption makes some difference, but (absent further countermeasures like using a proxy server in a less paranoid jurisdiction) it may protect the content, just analyzing what sites you visit tells an enormous amount about, well, everything.

  90. Robert Merkel

    Encryption makes some difference, but (absent further countermeasures like using a proxy server in a less paranoid jurisdiction) it may protect the content, just analyzing what sites you visit tells an enormous amount about, well, everything.

  91. Jacques de Molay

    nasking,

    Without having seen today’s Agenda show I think for the most part VO is as close to balanced as right-wingers come. I watch his Contrarians show on Sky whenever I want to hear the opinions of the sane Right (him). He says things like the Rudd government should be re-elected or defends a government policy and then gets abused for being a lefty or a Labor apologist via email & Twitter comments during the show.

    Yesterday unfortunately he had two right-wingers as his guests (the pathetic Tom Switzer & the regular guy from the Menzies research front, although I doubt he gets to choose his guests, normally the lefty is Paul Howes or Bruce Hawker) and spent most of the show calling them typical right-wingers and gave them shit for their Liberal Party scripted answers.

    In fact at one point he dared Cheeser/Cheesell (whatever his names is) from the Menzies front to say one concerning thing people might have about a potential Tony Abbott election campaign and he refused. He gave him a couple of opportunities and would then cut him off once he started talking him up or refusing to concede Abbott’s personal polling is poor. VO even tried to find something politically Switzer and the other guy disagreed on and they could only come up with the Afghan invasion/war.

    It was funny when VO brought up the David Marr QE both of the goons said they thought it was very good and although they had different ideologies to Marr thought it was fair and good journalism. VO then said to Switzer that he must’ve thought similar of some essay/book Marr wrote about John Howard and Switzer immediately said that piece was disgraceful, untrue etc. with VO sitting their laughing.

    On his show if anything most of the time VO agrees more with Paul Howes than he does the IPA/Menzies goon.

  92. Jacques de Molay

    nasking,

    Without having seen today’s Agenda show I think for the most part VO is as close to balanced as right-wingers come. I watch his Contrarians show on Sky whenever I want to hear the opinions of the sane Right (him). He says things like the Rudd government should be re-elected or defends a government policy and then gets abused for being a lefty or a Labor apologist via email & Twitter comments during the show.

    Yesterday unfortunately he had two right-wingers as his guests (the pathetic Tom Switzer & the regular guy from the Menzies research front, although I doubt he gets to choose his guests, normally the lefty is Paul Howes or Bruce Hawker) and spent most of the show calling them typical right-wingers and gave them shit for their Liberal Party scripted answers.

    In fact at one point he dared Cheeser/Cheesell (whatever his names is) from the Menzies front to say one concerning thing people might have about a potential Tony Abbott election campaign and he refused. He gave him a couple of opportunities and would then cut him off once he started talking him up or refusing to concede Abbott’s personal polling is poor. VO even tried to find something politically Switzer and the other guy disagreed on and they could only come up with the Afghan invasion/war.

    It was funny when VO brought up the David Marr QE both of the goons said they thought it was very good and although they had different ideologies to Marr thought it was fair and good journalism. VO then said to Switzer that he must’ve thought similar of some essay/book Marr wrote about John Howard and Switzer immediately said that piece was disgraceful, untrue etc. with VO sitting their laughing.

    On his show if anything most of the time VO agrees more with Paul Howes than he does the IPA/Menzies goon.

  93. Fran Barlow

    [email protected] said:

    As wind generates no GHG’s …

    This is true only in a frivolous sense — turning turbines rotating a permanent magnet and producing a current generate no GHGs. This is a long way from what those who favour mitigation of GHGs are interested in.

    What is salient for those of us who want to reduce FF emissions is the extent to which the inclusion of wind resources in the system forecloses the harvest and combustion of fossil fuels or the emission of GHGs more generally. Wind turbines can’t do much of this and what they can do, they do at an unacceptably high cost in practice. If you want to displace 1GW of coal with 1GW of wind you need very nearly 1GW or so of CCGT capacity, even if you don’t always use it.

    When you throw in the GHG costs of concrete footings and steel and copper wire for grid connection and roads for service to the turbines and the gas capacity on standby and so forth it simply doesn’t stack up well. You could spend that same money and get much bigger cuts just using gas on its own.

  94. Fran Barlow

    [email protected] said:

    As wind generates no GHG’s …

    This is true only in a frivolous sense — turning turbines rotating a permanent magnet and producing a current generate no GHGs. This is a long way from what those who favour mitigation of GHGs are interested in.

    What is salient for those of us who want to reduce FF emissions is the extent to which the inclusion of wind resources in the system forecloses the harvest and combustion of fossil fuels or the emission of GHGs more generally. Wind turbines can’t do much of this and what they can do, they do at an unacceptably high cost in practice. If you want to displace 1GW of coal with 1GW of wind you need very nearly 1GW or so of CCGT capacity, even if you don’t always use it.

    When you throw in the GHG costs of concrete footings and steel and copper wire for grid connection and roads for service to the turbines and the gas capacity on standby and so forth it simply doesn’t stack up well. You could spend that same money and get much bigger cuts just using gas on its own.

  95. Tim Macknay

    Wind turbines can’t do much of this and what they can do, they do at an unacceptably high cost in practice.

    Fran, I would suggest that the fact that wind turbines are being installed in large numbers in many countries is pretty clear evidence that ‘in practice’ the cost is not ‘unacceptably high’. If it was unacceptably high, wind turbines would not be installed.

  96. Tim Macknay

    Wind turbines can’t do much of this and what they can do, they do at an unacceptably high cost in practice.

    Fran, I would suggest that the fact that wind turbines are being installed in large numbers in many countries is pretty clear evidence that ‘in practice’ the cost is not ‘unacceptably high’. If it was unacceptably high, wind turbines would not be installed.

  97. Zorronsky

    Last night I drew Brazil and Germany in our pub World Cup sweep. I think this may be a conspiracy to convince me to be interested in soccer. As an aside I watched Carmichael Hunt try and play a more interesting code today and I guess his huge salary is weighted very heavily in favour of his promotional value to Gold Cost.
    By the way, at 10 bucks a country, I will take an interest in the results after all.

  98. Zorronsky

    Last night I drew Brazil and Germany in our pub World Cup sweep. I think this may be a conspiracy to convince me to be interested in soccer. As an aside I watched Carmichael Hunt try and play a more interesting code today and I guess his huge salary is weighted very heavily in favour of his promotional value to Gold Cost.
    By the way, at 10 bucks a country, I will take an interest in the results after all.

  99. TerjeP

    Tim – don’t be foolish. The commercialisation of wind power is the product of government policies not economics. In Australia it is MRET that brings wind power to market. MRET doesn’t take account of the impact on CO2 it just gives wind an effective subsidy irrespective of the real benefit. A carbon tax would be a far more effective form of interference and it wouldn’t lead to many wind farms.

  100. TerjeP

    Tim – don’t be foolish. The commercialisation of wind power is the product of government policies not economics. In Australia it is MRET that brings wind power to market. MRET doesn’t take account of the impact on CO2 it just gives wind an effective subsidy irrespective of the real benefit. A carbon tax would be a far more effective form of interference and it wouldn’t lead to many wind farms.

  101. nasking

    “On his show if anything most of the time VO agrees more with Paul Howes than he does the IPA/Menzies goon.”

    Thing is Jacques I don’t trust him to remain “balanced”…what I saw today was someone ready & willing to do the News Ltd. stomp on Rudd/Labor.

    I’ve seen many a so called “balanced” commentator in News Ltd move w/ the herd in the final mths of an election…and something tells me that unless Rudd coughs up the goods for Murdoch’s empire the barrage of attacks we’ve been seeing across the News Ltd spectrum will just intensify.

    There is a frenzy to this that I find rather alarming. And destabilising for a democratic nation.

    A similar kind of intensity was applied to the recent UK election by the Tory supporting media…but that government had been in power for a good long time…and often kowtowed to Murdoch. The deal was done w/ Cameron. And we saw The Sun etc. go ballistic on Brown.

    I’m seeing the same here. But a one term government? Fishy.

    Certainly hooking in readers/viewers to pay the bills…keep the advertisers happy…and strengthen the hand of the traditional press whilst News Ltd blogs compete w/ others & stabilise are part of the reason…

    but I just get the feeling there’s alot more behind this onslaught.

    Including Rudd’s unpredictability…possible changes to media ownership rules…financial support for free-to-air networks…investigations into conduct of certain News Ltd characters/articles/leaks…threats to Fox’s domination of some sports…and so on…must be taken into account.

    For so many people on the blogs to notice the intensity & consistency & bloody-mindedness of the attacks on Rudd specifically, means something really does stink when it comes to the state of our mainstream media.

    N’

  102. nasking

    “On his show if anything most of the time VO agrees more with Paul Howes than he does the IPA/Menzies goon.”

    Thing is Jacques I don’t trust him to remain “balanced”…what I saw today was someone ready & willing to do the News Ltd. stomp on Rudd/Labor.

    I’ve seen many a so called “balanced” commentator in News Ltd move w/ the herd in the final mths of an election…and something tells me that unless Rudd coughs up the goods for Murdoch’s empire the barrage of attacks we’ve been seeing across the News Ltd spectrum will just intensify.

    There is a frenzy to this that I find rather alarming. And destabilising for a democratic nation.

    A similar kind of intensity was applied to the recent UK election by the Tory supporting media…but that government had been in power for a good long time…and often kowtowed to Murdoch. The deal was done w/ Cameron. And we saw The Sun etc. go ballistic on Brown.

    I’m seeing the same here. But a one term government? Fishy.

    Certainly hooking in readers/viewers to pay the bills…keep the advertisers happy…and strengthen the hand of the traditional press whilst News Ltd blogs compete w/ others & stabilise are part of the reason…

    but I just get the feeling there’s alot more behind this onslaught.

    Including Rudd’s unpredictability…possible changes to media ownership rules…financial support for free-to-air networks…investigations into conduct of certain News Ltd characters/articles/leaks…threats to Fox’s domination of some sports…and so on…must be taken into account.

    For so many people on the blogs to notice the intensity & consistency & bloody-mindedness of the attacks on Rudd specifically, means something really does stink when it comes to the state of our mainstream media.

    N’

  103. Matt

    Julian Assange – all over the internets today. Not that you’d know it by looking at the Aussie online mainstream press.

    You’d think an Australian national being hunted by the Pentagon (with some experienced commentators saying his life is possibly in danger) might attract at least some attention.

    Apparently not.

  104. Matt

    Julian Assange – all over the internets today. Not that you’d know it by looking at the Aussie online mainstream press.

    You’d think an Australian national being hunted by the Pentagon (with some experienced commentators saying his life is possibly in danger) might attract at least some attention.

    Apparently not.

  105. Debbieanne

    Yes [email protected] It is a worry. But the MSM would agree that he deserves it.

  106. Debbieanne

    Yes [email protected] It is a worry. But the MSM would agree that he deserves it.

  107. Guido

    As the World Cup started I was wondering looking at the opening ceremony if sport in South Africa is still followed on racial lines. Looking at the crowds and also at the promotion I saw very few white faces … if any. As someone who has never been to South Africa I was wondering if football is still predominantly the sport of the majority black citizens, Rugby of the Afrikaans and Cricket of the English speaking South Africans (including those of Indian descent).

  108. Guido

    As the World Cup started I was wondering looking at the opening ceremony if sport in South Africa is still followed on racial lines. Looking at the crowds and also at the promotion I saw very few white faces … if any. As someone who has never been to South Africa I was wondering if football is still predominantly the sport of the majority black citizens, Rugby of the Afrikaans and Cricket of the English speaking South Africans (including those of Indian descent).

  109. Jacques Chester

    Encryption makes some difference, but (absent further countermeasures like using a proxy server in a less paranoid jurisdiction) it may protect the content, just analyzing what sites you visit tells an enormous amount about, well, everything.

    Which is the idea behind The Onion Router — making it hard to do that by having nodes in multiple jurisdictions.

    It is probably possible to detect that a particular computer is a TOR node (which is a problem for people in China, for example), but that’s about it.

  110. Jacques Chester

    Encryption makes some difference, but (absent further countermeasures like using a proxy server in a less paranoid jurisdiction) it may protect the content, just analyzing what sites you visit tells an enormous amount about, well, everything.

    Which is the idea behind The Onion Router — making it hard to do that by having nodes in multiple jurisdictions.

    It is probably possible to detect that a particular computer is a TOR node (which is a problem for people in China, for example), but that’s about it.

  111. Jacques Chester

    Talked to a friend of mine very much up on Internet stuff. He reckons the ISPs would just not be able to hold that huge amount of traffic if they had to keep details of every users web browsing and e-mail traffic. The system would just break down.

    Regretfully, I must disagree. Suppose that users visit 200 URLs per day. Suppose an ISP with 500,000 active daily users. That’s 100 million URLs per day. Suppose 200 bytes per URL. That’s approximately 20Gb per day, or 6 1Tb drives per year.

    That can be had for around $2,000. Maybe $10,000 if you use a fancy SAN for storage.

    That’s leaving aside using a relational database to compact the representation and before compressing the raw data (which is highly compressible plain text).

    Now what about performance?

    100 million URLs per day is about 1160 per second. A vanilla quad-core system costing around $5,000 can handle that standing on its head. Again let’s go “enterprise” and triple the sticker price to $15,000.

    For $25,000 you can get a server and storage kit that will handle 100 million URLs per day for a year. Buy two for redundancy – $50,000. An ISP with half a million users can afford it.

    Unfortunately, technical and economic infeasibility is not the probable issue here.

  112. Jacques Chester

    Talked to a friend of mine very much up on Internet stuff. He reckons the ISPs would just not be able to hold that huge amount of traffic if they had to keep details of every users web browsing and e-mail traffic. The system would just break down.

    Regretfully, I must disagree. Suppose that users visit 200 URLs per day. Suppose an ISP with 500,000 active daily users. That’s 100 million URLs per day. Suppose 200 bytes per URL. That’s approximately 20Gb per day, or 6 1Tb drives per year.

    That can be had for around $2,000. Maybe $10,000 if you use a fancy SAN for storage.

    That’s leaving aside using a relational database to compact the representation and before compressing the raw data (which is highly compressible plain text).

    Now what about performance?

    100 million URLs per day is about 1160 per second. A vanilla quad-core system costing around $5,000 can handle that standing on its head. Again let’s go “enterprise” and triple the sticker price to $15,000.

    For $25,000 you can get a server and storage kit that will handle 100 million URLs per day for a year. Buy two for redundancy – $50,000. An ISP with half a million users can afford it.

    Unfortunately, technical and economic infeasibility is not the probable issue here.

  113. j_p_z

    You know I have a pretty hard time thinking that Sarah Palin should be the next US president, and for a lot of different reasons; but for all you people who continue to believe she’s just a plumb idiot, take a look here and tell me if you think that’s still a supportable case.

    Certainly Mr. Obama, the left’s “Wile E. Coyote, Soooper-Geeenius” continues to disappoint on multiple fronts. Meantime, as the BP leak goes on poisoning the Gulf of Mexico, the leftist/feminist media brigade fixates on whether or not Mrs. Palin has had breast implants. Hey, look over there! (Hi Helen! You still think I’m “making shit up”?)

    It’d be sort of nice to have an old-school Vader-ish bore like Thaddeus McCotter as the next president, but I don’t see it happening. Maybe Lady Gaga?

  114. j_p_z

    You know I have a pretty hard time thinking that Sarah Palin should be the next US president, and for a lot of different reasons; but for all you people who continue to believe she’s just a plumb idiot, take a look here and tell me if you think that’s still a supportable case.

    Certainly Mr. Obama, the left’s “Wile E. Coyote, Soooper-Geeenius” continues to disappoint on multiple fronts. Meantime, as the BP leak goes on poisoning the Gulf of Mexico, the leftist/feminist media brigade fixates on whether or not Mrs. Palin has had breast implants. Hey, look over there! (Hi Helen! You still think I’m “making shit up”?)

    It’d be sort of nice to have an old-school Vader-ish bore like Thaddeus McCotter as the next president, but I don’t see it happening. Maybe Lady Gaga?

  115. David Hooke

    Jacques @ 56,

    With not much regret, I must disagree. ISPs don’t know about “URLs” and other application layer stuff, as they route at the IP layer (and subsequently use technologies like MPLS through their networks). To get to your numbers, the ISPs would need to analyse protocols above TCP/UDP/RTSP, and then aggregate/feed this to your el-cheapo box. I’d suggest you factor this into your costs.

    You’ll need a bigger envelope to scrawl on the back of.

    davidh

  116. David Hooke

    Jacques @ 56,

    With not much regret, I must disagree. ISPs don’t know about “URLs” and other application layer stuff, as they route at the IP layer (and subsequently use technologies like MPLS through their networks). To get to your numbers, the ISPs would need to analyse protocols above TCP/UDP/RTSP, and then aggregate/feed this to your el-cheapo box. I’d suggest you factor this into your costs.

    You’ll need a bigger envelope to scrawl on the back of.

    davidh

  117. David Hooke

    Actually, it’s even harder than I thought. Most subscribers have dynamic IP addresses (DHCP, PPPoA or PPPoE), so you’d either have to correlate MAC addresses with records kept from network ingress (BRAS/CMTS) or get meta-data from the DHCP/billing systems.

    Sorry, I’ll stop now….

  118. David Hooke

    Actually, it’s even harder than I thought. Most subscribers have dynamic IP addresses (DHCP, PPPoA or PPPoE), so you’d either have to correlate MAC addresses with records kept from network ingress (BRAS/CMTS) or get meta-data from the DHCP/billing systems.

    Sorry, I’ll stop now….

  119. Salient Green

    @47, I think Tim Macknay @ 48 pretty much refuted that lot of nonsense and with special reference to Terje @ 50, Tim said “in practice”. Fossil fuels are subsidised to a far greater degree.

    And back to 47, the hypocrisy of your stance beggars belief. Wind produces power without emissions or resource depletion and you grizzle when an emssions producing resource depleting gas generator is idle. You grizzle about “unacceptably high costs” of wind yet FF power is massively subsidised and your preferred source of power generation requires massive subsidies and massive investment in the development of new technology – read subsidies.

    Those of us who want a reduction of GHG emissions see wind as a vital part of the mix. We see massive offshore wind turbines at selected places around Australia coupled with another emissionless, non resource depleting energy source, wave power, all interconnected so that there is plenty of time to crank up the CCGT’s as the wind drops progressively while wave power continues to feed the system.

  120. Salient Green

    @47, I think Tim Macknay @ 48 pretty much refuted that lot of nonsense and with special reference to Terje @ 50, Tim said “in practice”. Fossil fuels are subsidised to a far greater degree.

    And back to 47, the hypocrisy of your stance beggars belief. Wind produces power without emissions or resource depletion and you grizzle when an emssions producing resource depleting gas generator is idle. You grizzle about “unacceptably high costs” of wind yet FF power is massively subsidised and your preferred source of power generation requires massive subsidies and massive investment in the development of new technology – read subsidies.

    Those of us who want a reduction of GHG emissions see wind as a vital part of the mix. We see massive offshore wind turbines at selected places around Australia coupled with another emissionless, non resource depleting energy source, wave power, all interconnected so that there is plenty of time to crank up the CCGT’s as the wind drops progressively while wave power continues to feed the system.

  121. Fran Barlow

    Salient

    As you know, I’m utterly against any kind of subsidy to fossil fuels, whether of the direct or indirect (i.e from the commons) side. How you can say that wind produces power without resource depletion is hard to fathom. Can you really be saying that wind farms require mo materials to be produced or mined? No equipment to be serviced? No copper wire to deliver its output over the thousands of kms that must be installed, or from the near coast?

    The bitter reality is that even if all direct and indirect subsidies were removed, wind would not be competitive with coal or gas. Not even close, and the higher the penetration the less favourable this comparison would get, assuming equal availability of output. That’s where Tim’s comments are misleading. One can build wind capacity at a fraction of that of nuclear power, for example — but that capacity cannot in practice reliably deliver any amount of power at all, so the comparison is flawed. Between 17-21 May this year, according to AEMO figures, 972MW of installed wind capacity spread over about 1100km delivered between O-6% of its theoretical capacity — i.e a tiny fraction of its capacity factor and less too than even its capacity credit. Had there been a lot more wind turbines, this would not have changed unless they were in some part of the country where wind was available at the time and then of course, the costs would have been even higher.

    No state is going to open-endedly commit to that cost. At 1% penetration, the system can fit wind into its broader margin for error. At 20% it can’t and the costs go up a lot.

  122. Fran Barlow

    Salient

    As you know, I’m utterly against any kind of subsidy to fossil fuels, whether of the direct or indirect (i.e from the commons) side. How you can say that wind produces power without resource depletion is hard to fathom. Can you really be saying that wind farms require mo materials to be produced or mined? No equipment to be serviced? No copper wire to deliver its output over the thousands of kms that must be installed, or from the near coast?

    The bitter reality is that even if all direct and indirect subsidies were removed, wind would not be competitive with coal or gas. Not even close, and the higher the penetration the less favourable this comparison would get, assuming equal availability of output. That’s where Tim’s comments are misleading. One can build wind capacity at a fraction of that of nuclear power, for example — but that capacity cannot in practice reliably deliver any amount of power at all, so the comparison is flawed. Between 17-21 May this year, according to AEMO figures, 972MW of installed wind capacity spread over about 1100km delivered between O-6% of its theoretical capacity — i.e a tiny fraction of its capacity factor and less too than even its capacity credit. Had there been a lot more wind turbines, this would not have changed unless they were in some part of the country where wind was available at the time and then of course, the costs would have been even higher.

    No state is going to open-endedly commit to that cost. At 1% penetration, the system can fit wind into its broader margin for error. At 20% it can’t and the costs go up a lot.

  123. Tyro Rex

    I just want to be a pedant and point out that wind power does deplete a resource – the kinetic energy of the atmosphere (which is renewable because it’s powered by the Sun). Probably only some infinitesimal amount, but still …

  124. Tyro Rex

    I just want to be a pedant and point out that wind power does deplete a resource – the kinetic energy of the atmosphere (which is renewable because it’s powered by the Sun). Probably only some infinitesimal amount, but still …

  125. Tyro Rex

    … point 0.007% in fact –

    energies
    ISSN 1996-1073
    http://www.mdpi.com/journal/energies

    Investigating the Effect of Large Wind Farms on Energy in the Atmosphere

    Magdalena R.V. Sta. Maria and Mark Z. Jacobson

    Atmosphere/Energy Program, Civil and Environmental Engineering Department, Stanford University,

    30 September 2009

    Abstract: This study presents a parameterization of the interaction between wind turbines and the atmosphere and estimates the global and regional atmospheric energy losses due to such interactions. The parameterization is based on the Blade Element Momentum theory, which calculates forces on turbine blades. Should wind supply the world’s energy needs, this parameterization estimates energy loss in the lowest 1 km of the atmosphere to be ~0.007%. This is an order of magnitude smaller than atmospheric energy loss from aerosol pollution and urbanization, and orders of magnitude less than the energy added to the atmosphere from doubling CO2. Also, the net heat added to the environment due to wind dissipation is much less than that added by thermal plants that the turbines displace.

  126. Tyro Rex

    … point 0.007% in fact –

    energies
    ISSN 1996-1073
    http://www.mdpi.com/journal/energies

    Investigating the Effect of Large Wind Farms on Energy in the Atmosphere

    Magdalena R.V. Sta. Maria and Mark Z. Jacobson

    Atmosphere/Energy Program, Civil and Environmental Engineering Department, Stanford University,

    30 September 2009

    Abstract: This study presents a parameterization of the interaction between wind turbines and the atmosphere and estimates the global and regional atmospheric energy losses due to such interactions. The parameterization is based on the Blade Element Momentum theory, which calculates forces on turbine blades. Should wind supply the world’s energy needs, this parameterization estimates energy loss in the lowest 1 km of the atmosphere to be ~0.007%. This is an order of magnitude smaller than atmospheric energy loss from aerosol pollution and urbanization, and orders of magnitude less than the energy added to the atmosphere from doubling CO2. Also, the net heat added to the environment due to wind dissipation is much less than that added by thermal plants that the turbines displace.

  127. Paul Burns

    Jacque Chester @ 56
    No problems with people disagreeing with me. Good to see there’s a discussion going on about it between you and DH.

  128. Paul Burns

    Jacque Chester @ 56
    No problems with people disagreeing with me. Good to see there’s a discussion going on about it between you and DH.

  129. Salient Green

    I concede that Wind energy depletes the kinetic energy resource and I didn’t think it was pedantic of you Tyro Rex. It was a major omission on my part, very embarassing.

    I must fess up that I was deliberately misleading by leaving out The Ozone production by Wind generators which is a GHG in the upper atmosphere.

  130. Salient Green

    I concede that Wind energy depletes the kinetic energy resource and I didn’t think it was pedantic of you Tyro Rex. It was a major omission on my part, very embarassing.

    I must fess up that I was deliberately misleading by leaving out The Ozone production by Wind generators which is a GHG in the upper atmosphere.

  131. TerjeP

    The KE absorbed from the wind is As good as nothing. The steel and concrete is not nothing. Wind is a mostly useless source of energy for a modern industrialised nation. We are building them at great cost as idols to some green fantasy. Every time I drive past a wind farm I’m reminded of humanities great capacity for stupidity.

  132. TerjeP

    The KE absorbed from the wind is As good as nothing. The steel and concrete is not nothing. Wind is a mostly useless source of energy for a modern industrialised nation. We are building them at great cost as idols to some green fantasy. Every time I drive past a wind farm I’m reminded of humanities great capacity for stupidity.

  133. su

    Meantime, as the BP leak goes on poisoning the Gulf of Mexico, the leftist/feminist media brigade fixates on whether or not Mrs. Palin has had breast implants.

    By leftist/feminist media brigade do you mean one site ie. Wonkette or is all media in America leftist/feminist in the same way that all media here is characterized as conservative, because you should know that sexist attention to a politician’s appearance is a conservative phenomenon down here, simply because our most prominent female politician is in the Labor party. But yeah, the follow up piece where they lauded the fact that they had found a topic on which Palin would not comment turned my stomach. Shaming Palin over her body and suggesting she needs to STFU is deeply disappointing and outrageous to me. If you need a local counterexample j_p_z then check out Reclusive Leftist, a blog with nowhere near the reach of Wonkette but which came out swinging against the sexist attacks on Palin from day one of the Presidential campaign.

  134. su

    Meantime, as the BP leak goes on poisoning the Gulf of Mexico, the leftist/feminist media brigade fixates on whether or not Mrs. Palin has had breast implants.

    By leftist/feminist media brigade do you mean one site ie. Wonkette or is all media in America leftist/feminist in the same way that all media here is characterized as conservative, because you should know that sexist attention to a politician’s appearance is a conservative phenomenon down here, simply because our most prominent female politician is in the Labor party. But yeah, the follow up piece where they lauded the fact that they had found a topic on which Palin would not comment turned my stomach. Shaming Palin over her body and suggesting she needs to STFU is deeply disappointing and outrageous to me. If you need a local counterexample j_p_z then check out Reclusive Leftist, a blog with nowhere near the reach of Wonkette but which came out swinging against the sexist attacks on Palin from day one of the Presidential campaign.

  135. Andyc

    T Rex @ 62: “I just want to be a pedant and point out that wind power does deplete a resource – the kinetic energy of the atmosphere (which is renewable because it’s powered by the Sun). “

    Hence, wind power becomes more desirable as global warming increases the energy content of the atmosphere. Plant some windmills, and forestall a cyclone! 🙂

  136. Andyc

    T Rex @ 62: “I just want to be a pedant and point out that wind power does deplete a resource – the kinetic energy of the atmosphere (which is renewable because it’s powered by the Sun). “

    Hence, wind power becomes more desirable as global warming increases the energy content of the atmosphere. Plant some windmills, and forestall a cyclone! 🙂

  137. TerjeP

    Global warming is supposed to lower the temperature differencial between day and night and won’t necessarily mean more wind. So warm the planet and forestall a cyclone. 😉

  138. TerjeP

    Global warming is supposed to lower the temperature differencial between day and night and won’t necessarily mean more wind. So warm the planet and forestall a cyclone. 😉

  139. Tyro Rex

    Also as this weekend’s model pedant I want to add that the Sun itself is not a renewable resource. It has a fixed amount of nuclear fuel.

    Therefore wind, solar, thermal, are not “renewables”. It just depends what timescale you want to operate on.

  140. Tyro Rex

    Also as this weekend’s model pedant I want to add that the Sun itself is not a renewable resource. It has a fixed amount of nuclear fuel.

    Therefore wind, solar, thermal, are not “renewables”. It just depends what timescale you want to operate on.

  141. Fran Barlow

    Professor David Mackay partially addressed this problem in his discussion of what would would amount to sustainability in the present context. He defined a sustainable energy system as one which would allow us to live at about our current level of energy consumption for 1000 years.

    One assumes that sometime in the next thousand years both human consumption patterns and available technology will be so different that trying to project what would be apt would be pointless. He points out that if, for example, the deuterium fusion reaction was made to work to its theoretical potential there would be enough energy available for every human to consume about 1000 times as much energy as average first world humans do now and expect the resource to last a million years.

    Fusion is one of those things that is always “about 30 years away from being solved”. AFAIK, this is still true, but it’s not unreasonable to think that sometime in the next 100 years, it might be. Would anyone from the year 1010CE have imagined society as it now stands? We may be in an even worse position to imagine 3010.

    So if “we” can survive until 3010, in reasonable shape, the odds are with “us”.

  142. Fran Barlow

    Professor David Mackay partially addressed this problem in his discussion of what would would amount to sustainability in the present context. He defined a sustainable energy system as one which would allow us to live at about our current level of energy consumption for 1000 years.

    One assumes that sometime in the next thousand years both human consumption patterns and available technology will be so different that trying to project what would be apt would be pointless. He points out that if, for example, the deuterium fusion reaction was made to work to its theoretical potential there would be enough energy available for every human to consume about 1000 times as much energy as average first world humans do now and expect the resource to last a million years.

    Fusion is one of those things that is always “about 30 years away from being solved”. AFAIK, this is still true, but it’s not unreasonable to think that sometime in the next 100 years, it might be. Would anyone from the year 1010CE have imagined society as it now stands? We may be in an even worse position to imagine 3010.

    So if “we” can survive until 3010, in reasonable shape, the odds are with “us”.

  143. Jacques Chester

    With not much regret, I must disagree. ISPs don’t know about “URLs” and other application layer stuff, as they route at the IP layer (and subsequently use technologies like MPLS through their networks).

    David, you’re absolutely right on this point and I believe that somewhere, my networks lecturer is clawing his own eyes out.

    Nevertheless, I believe it will still be possible to use tools as common as iptables to identify HTTP handshakes and log the IP address with very modest overhead.

    An easier way for ISPs to easily obtain URLs is to log DNS requests, as ISPs generally run their own DNS servers for user connections.

    I suspect that, in fact, my original envelope may be within the right order of magnitude.

    I am actually interviewing for a programming job at iinet next week — I’ll make sure to ask them.

  144. Jacques Chester

    With not much regret, I must disagree. ISPs don’t know about “URLs” and other application layer stuff, as they route at the IP layer (and subsequently use technologies like MPLS through their networks).

    David, you’re absolutely right on this point and I believe that somewhere, my networks lecturer is clawing his own eyes out.

    Nevertheless, I believe it will still be possible to use tools as common as iptables to identify HTTP handshakes and log the IP address with very modest overhead.

    An easier way for ISPs to easily obtain URLs is to log DNS requests, as ISPs generally run their own DNS servers for user connections.

    I suspect that, in fact, my original envelope may be within the right order of magnitude.

    I am actually interviewing for a programming job at iinet next week — I’ll make sure to ask them.

  145. TerjeP

    I use a DNS that is not run by my ISP. It is called OpenDNS. The reason I do this is so I can filter content. The kids won’t easily bump into porn sites on our home Internet connection. It isn’t hard to envisage an encrypted DNS service.

  146. TerjeP

    I use a DNS that is not run by my ISP. It is called OpenDNS. The reason I do this is so I can filter content. The kids won’t easily bump into porn sites on our home Internet connection. It isn’t hard to envisage an encrypted DNS service.

  147. Fran Barlow

    As someone who has opposed government support for elite sport, I’m finding the latest brouhaha over Andrew Johns rather telling. It seems once again we see that social being determines consciousness, not the other way about.

    All of the consciousness raising by Kathy Lumby and pledges to reform the culture of bullying, misogyny and to reinvent positive masculinity has been exposed for the useless frippery that it must be in a context where men become reduced to mere articles of high commerce and corporate branding via the mechanism of physical contest. If you want heroes for the sales of beer or cars or national pride, this is what you author — people who think that racial abuse is a way to underscore commitment. Some commentator on the sports rundown progma on ABC Radio 630 even tried an apologia — suggesting that what Johns said was in common usage. It’s not my common usage and I have never heard the term or similar used in any social setting where I have been present. He insisted Johns was not a racist — but I could not but wonder how then he would recognise a racist.

    As repulsive as Johns’ behaviour was, my primary disgust remains with the system which fosters the context in which racial (and other abuse) is normalised as an instantiation of male bonding. If there is a more compelling reason to stap talking about elite sport as providing role models for children, then I am not sure I need to hear of it.

  148. Fran Barlow

    As someone who has opposed government support for elite sport, I’m finding the latest brouhaha over Andrew Johns rather telling. It seems once again we see that social being determines consciousness, not the other way about.

    All of the consciousness raising by Kathy Lumby and pledges to reform the culture of bullying, misogyny and to reinvent positive masculinity has been exposed for the useless frippery that it must be in a context where men become reduced to mere articles of high commerce and corporate branding via the mechanism of physical contest. If you want heroes for the sales of beer or cars or national pride, this is what you author — people who think that racial abuse is a way to underscore commitment. Some commentator on the sports rundown progma on ABC Radio 630 even tried an apologia — suggesting that what Johns said was in common usage. It’s not my common usage and I have never heard the term or similar used in any social setting where I have been present. He insisted Johns was not a racist — but I could not but wonder how then he would recognise a racist.

    As repulsive as Johns’ behaviour was, my primary disgust remains with the system which fosters the context in which racial (and other abuse) is normalised as an instantiation of male bonding. If there is a more compelling reason to stap talking about elite sport as providing role models for children, then I am not sure I need to hear of it.

  149. Jacques Chester

    I did some more thinking about DNS. All they can tell is that you requested it at some point; they can’t use it to track every visit to a site as browsers and operating systems cache the result.

    It’s still a vile idea.

  150. Jacques Chester

    I did some more thinking about DNS. All they can tell is that you requested it at some point; they can’t use it to track every visit to a site as browsers and operating systems cache the result.

    It’s still a vile idea.

  151. silkworm

    A US activist, who has survived an Israeli attack on a convoy of ships carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza, says Israeli forces are looting money from her bank card.

    Former US nurse and aid worker Kathy Sheetz, who was on Mavi Marmara ship, has provided Press TV with bank statements proving her bank card, taken by the Israeli forces during the attack, has since been used in Tel Aviv.

    “It looks as though they tried to use it without the PIN code and could not, but they could use it in a vending machine and had multiple accesses to my card to buy beer, according to the statement,” Sheetz said.

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=130052

  152. silkworm

    A US activist, who has survived an Israeli attack on a convoy of ships carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza, says Israeli forces are looting money from her bank card.

    Former US nurse and aid worker Kathy Sheetz, who was on Mavi Marmara ship, has provided Press TV with bank statements proving her bank card, taken by the Israeli forces during the attack, has since been used in Tel Aviv.

    “It looks as though they tried to use it without the PIN code and could not, but they could use it in a vending machine and had multiple accesses to my card to buy beer, according to the statement,” Sheetz said.

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=130052

  153. pablo

    Fran @ 75. Yes the apologia industry within rugby league has moved into overdrive to excuse Johns’ comments – all done in the name of ‘bonding’ of course. Using the self deprecating term ‘white trash’ to counterbalance the Inglis stuff is somehow seen as evidence of a balanced individual.
    Johns’ contrition, as seen on tv appearances since, also strikes me as farcical along with the general League management view that if the three – Tahu, Inglis and Johns – do a phone hook-up all will be resolved. The fact that the NRL have no racial vilification management structure similar to the AFL is also a problem I believe. This in-house failure could prove dangerous in my view where you have a body keen to promote as a regular pre-season event the indigenous versus ‘the rest’ game. Throw in the Johns ‘common usage’ and you have the potential for a ‘boil over’ – to put it in rugby league parlance.

  154. pablo

    Fran @ 75. Yes the apologia industry within rugby league has moved into overdrive to excuse Johns’ comments – all done in the name of ‘bonding’ of course. Using the self deprecating term ‘white trash’ to counterbalance the Inglis stuff is somehow seen as evidence of a balanced individual.
    Johns’ contrition, as seen on tv appearances since, also strikes me as farcical along with the general League management view that if the three – Tahu, Inglis and Johns – do a phone hook-up all will be resolved. The fact that the NRL have no racial vilification management structure similar to the AFL is also a problem I believe. This in-house failure could prove dangerous in my view where you have a body keen to promote as a regular pre-season event the indigenous versus ‘the rest’ game. Throw in the Johns ‘common usage’ and you have the potential for a ‘boil over’ – to put it in rugby league parlance.

  155. Chris

    Jacques @ 72 – if the filter is implemented I think they’re almost certainly doing inspection at the packet level. I don’t know the details so I don’t know for sure, but if they didn’t it would allow people to run web servers on ports other than port 80 to allow people who visit their sites and avoid the filter. Surely its not that easy to avoid? And since they are already doing filtering of urls annd ip addresses for the filter it would be pretty trivial for them to require that ISPs also log all urls visited by clients.

    Re: your comments about encryption – there’s some assumptions there:

    – that the implementation of the algorithms is correct when there have been quite a few cases in say the last decade where commonly used software has found to have small bugs which make it feasible to decrypt if not easy.

    – that the public knowledge of encryption is equal to that of the knowledge held by governments. In the past there has been reason to believe that agencies like the NSA are quite a bit ahead.

    – there’s also the time issue – I created a 1024 bit PGP key about a decade ago which at the time was the recommendation. These days I’d probably be paranoid enough to create a 4096 bit key. But someone is willing to keep copies of the data around for long enough they may eventually be able to decrypt it.

    – Most home users would be vulnerable to authorities injecting known plaintext as well which may be enough to recover session keys.

    David @ 58 – I would guess that most ISPs already record IP addresses given out to clients at different times. If for no other reason that they want to be able track down people using their network to spam or attempt to break into other networks.

  156. Chris

    Jacques @ 72 – if the filter is implemented I think they’re almost certainly doing inspection at the packet level. I don’t know the details so I don’t know for sure, but if they didn’t it would allow people to run web servers on ports other than port 80 to allow people who visit their sites and avoid the filter. Surely its not that easy to avoid? And since they are already doing filtering of urls annd ip addresses for the filter it would be pretty trivial for them to require that ISPs also log all urls visited by clients.

    Re: your comments about encryption – there’s some assumptions there:

    – that the implementation of the algorithms is correct when there have been quite a few cases in say the last decade where commonly used software has found to have small bugs which make it feasible to decrypt if not easy.

    – that the public knowledge of encryption is equal to that of the knowledge held by governments. In the past there has been reason to believe that agencies like the NSA are quite a bit ahead.

    – there’s also the time issue – I created a 1024 bit PGP key about a decade ago which at the time was the recommendation. These days I’d probably be paranoid enough to create a 4096 bit key. But someone is willing to keep copies of the data around for long enough they may eventually be able to decrypt it.

    – Most home users would be vulnerable to authorities injecting known plaintext as well which may be enough to recover session keys.

    David @ 58 – I would guess that most ISPs already record IP addresses given out to clients at different times. If for no other reason that they want to be able track down people using their network to spam or attempt to break into other networks.

  157. Brian

    pablo @ 77, my understanding is that it wasn’t team bonding. Andrew Johns was actually doing a bit of coaching at a team meeting. Came up with the brilliant suggestion that Beau Scott job was to stop his opposite number, who happened to be Greg Inglis. Well, duh!

    I’ve put up a post on the farce/event so we’d better carry on there if anyone wants to.

  158. Brian

    pablo @ 77, my understanding is that it wasn’t team bonding. Andrew Johns was actually doing a bit of coaching at a team meeting. Came up with the brilliant suggestion that Beau Scott job was to stop his opposite number, who happened to be Greg Inglis. Well, duh!

    I’ve put up a post on the farce/event so we’d better carry on there if anyone wants to.

  159. dylwah

    Happy Bloomsday everyone

  160. dylwah

    Happy Bloomsday everyone