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152 responses to “Saturday Salon”

  1. Corin

    Mark, given the poll in the Age/SMH tonight/tomorrow, are you going to accept that you were wrong or will it take another month or so, before you finally proclaim, she’s a Lefty after all.

  2. Corin

    Mark, given the poll in the Age/SMH tonight/tomorrow, are you going to accept that you were wrong or will it take another month or so, before you finally proclaim, she’s a Lefty after all.

  3. hannah's dad

    Galaxy poll after the coup has ALP primary up 4% to 41% and leading 52:48 on 2pp.

    Nielsen poll after the coup has ALP primary on 47% [up a whopping 8%] mostly from the Greens who are down 7% to 8% and the COALition virtually static. 2PP is 55:45 compared to the recent 47:53.

    In both these polls Gillard is outscoring Abbott by lots and lots on personal chareacterists [trust etc] [Nielsen] and Preferred PM about 58% to 32%.

    It seems to have been successful.

  4. hannah's dad

    Galaxy poll after the coup has ALP primary up 4% to 41% and leading 52:48 on 2pp.

    Nielsen poll after the coup has ALP primary on 47% [up a whopping 8%] mostly from the Greens who are down 7% to 8% and the COALition virtually static. 2PP is 55:45 compared to the recent 47:53.

    In both these polls Gillard is outscoring Abbott by lots and lots on personal chareacterists [trust etc] [Nielsen] and Preferred PM about 58% to 32%.

    It seems to have been successful.

  5. hannah's dad

    Here’s the Age/Nielsen link.

    http://www.theage.com.au/national/gillard-regains-a-winning-edge-20100625-z9sv.html

    And the Herald-Sun’s version of Galaxy

    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/julia-gillard-puts-labor-back-into-election-winning-position-first-poll-finds/story-e6frf7jo-1225884488474

    BTW Hewitt has won his first at Wimbledon, it’s late night TV season again.

  6. hannah's dad

    Here’s the Age/Nielsen link.

    http://www.theage.com.au/national/gillard-regains-a-winning-edge-20100625-z9sv.html

    And the Herald-Sun’s version of Galaxy

    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/julia-gillard-puts-labor-back-into-election-winning-position-first-poll-finds/story-e6frf7jo-1225884488474

    BTW Hewitt has won his first at Wimbledon, it’s late night TV season again.

  7. p.a.travers

    Been to my usual sites to see what is happening in the U.S.A. and focused on the Gulf.I feel sick right now,way past my bed time,and the bubbling sadness is mixing with the cold night.Rense.com and Alex Jones cover the puker maker aspects.Swann off to meetings recently Earthquaked.I just wondered to myself after seeing a video I have alluded to about bubbles in the water as a new phenomena,perhaps he maybe wrong.Want to bone up on the dynamics of activated carbon and oxygen as a function of being in an unnoticed rapid cooling as the slick stops the usual surface activity of waters.That may or may not be more frightening.And Just for a moment,I had an eerie feeling God touched me,but is my finger that of Hope!? A BLUE fLU WAS MENTIONED BY A PREDICTOR THAT USES WORDS USED ON COMPUTERS AT RENSE.On Gillard,I added im to her name letters and googled each letter then,Faulkner,{ But not Rudd.] Houston and Jacqueline Kent biographer,and went to as many pages as I could to satisfy my curiosity.I think either they have been signaling to a predescribed set of such doings which even sort of shows why perhaps Shorten and others were at a Restaurant.Although I didn’t do it for him and ended up asking the question about a key word like {heart} in Mandarin and Vietnamese where I went to the latest news and then to radio pop songs including Thailand.Where,if the Anti Porn and Child molester Police want to know,its in the history of tonight.Check it out.This time,maybe, unless I am completely mistaken.A mystery use of fleet is suggested also to deal with the Gulf Crisis.Well, I kept thinking about Dick Smith and Icebergs,and the very large destroyer classes and big flight decks.By a whisker of a chance,the silly U.S.A. types have been distracted bt Petraus,and need to use this big fleet.Perhaps to move millions they need to tell the people who have weapons to bring them,rather than to leave them at home,which may not be a pleasant place to be.And,both pro and anti-gun lobbies ought to have a political truce,they may need each other animals may act very crazy.I bought yesterday,a replica model of the Australian historical Endeavour,recent history told yesterday suggested whales attacked boats when their feeding was diminished as stock in the discovery of Sydney.That rather than the Gasland Film scenario is now more likely.I have stepped into the open space…be careful everyone,buy a tides book and keep a watch yourself of any changes occuring outside the possible.Tsunami warnings may in fact fail because of the effects of the oil slick globally.Be alone…to feel the dilemma we all humans may face.

  8. p.a.travers

    Been to my usual sites to see what is happening in the U.S.A. and focused on the Gulf.I feel sick right now,way past my bed time,and the bubbling sadness is mixing with the cold night.Rense.com and Alex Jones cover the puker maker aspects.Swann off to meetings recently Earthquaked.I just wondered to myself after seeing a video I have alluded to about bubbles in the water as a new phenomena,perhaps he maybe wrong.Want to bone up on the dynamics of activated carbon and oxygen as a function of being in an unnoticed rapid cooling as the slick stops the usual surface activity of waters.That may or may not be more frightening.And Just for a moment,I had an eerie feeling God touched me,but is my finger that of Hope!? A BLUE fLU WAS MENTIONED BY A PREDICTOR THAT USES WORDS USED ON COMPUTERS AT RENSE.On Gillard,I added im to her name letters and googled each letter then,Faulkner,{ But not Rudd.] Houston and Jacqueline Kent biographer,and went to as many pages as I could to satisfy my curiosity.I think either they have been signaling to a predescribed set of such doings which even sort of shows why perhaps Shorten and others were at a Restaurant.Although I didn’t do it for him and ended up asking the question about a key word like {heart} in Mandarin and Vietnamese where I went to the latest news and then to radio pop songs including Thailand.Where,if the Anti Porn and Child molester Police want to know,its in the history of tonight.Check it out.This time,maybe, unless I am completely mistaken.A mystery use of fleet is suggested also to deal with the Gulf Crisis.Well, I kept thinking about Dick Smith and Icebergs,and the very large destroyer classes and big flight decks.By a whisker of a chance,the silly U.S.A. types have been distracted bt Petraus,and need to use this big fleet.Perhaps to move millions they need to tell the people who have weapons to bring them,rather than to leave them at home,which may not be a pleasant place to be.And,both pro and anti-gun lobbies ought to have a political truce,they may need each other animals may act very crazy.I bought yesterday,a replica model of the Australian historical Endeavour,recent history told yesterday suggested whales attacked boats when their feeding was diminished as stock in the discovery of Sydney.That rather than the Gasland Film scenario is now more likely.I have stepped into the open space…be careful everyone,buy a tides book and keep a watch yourself of any changes occuring outside the possible.Tsunami warnings may in fact fail because of the effects of the oil slick globally.Be alone…to feel the dilemma we all humans may face.

  9. Mercurius

    Corin, FFS stop telling people what to think. You and Ron might be used to controlling people in a backroom or whatever creepy pursuit you do, but that only works on puppets, not living, breathing humans.

    Your cynicism is breathtaking, and shows that the modern ALP will betray any standard or principle to win an opinion poll! We’ve had a zombie government in NSW for 15 years, while transport and health infrastructure have rotted away, thanks to clowns like you who think the purpose of being in office is to be in office.

    So, after the new gang have locked up some reffos, bashed a few teachers, and got themselves thoroughly rogered by a mining executive, you want us to hail them as the best and brightest of the Left, do you?

    But, you’ve won an opinion poll, so it’s all good. Apart from that, Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?

  10. Mercurius

    Corin, FFS stop telling people what to think. You and Ron might be used to controlling people in a backroom or whatever creepy pursuit you do, but that only works on puppets, not living, breathing humans.

    Your cynicism is breathtaking, and shows that the modern ALP will betray any standard or principle to win an opinion poll! We’ve had a zombie government in NSW for 15 years, while transport and health infrastructure have rotted away, thanks to clowns like you who think the purpose of being in office is to be in office.

    So, after the new gang have locked up some reffos, bashed a few teachers, and got themselves thoroughly rogered by a mining executive, you want us to hail them as the best and brightest of the Left, do you?

    But, you’ve won an opinion poll, so it’s all good. Apart from that, Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?

  11. Bingo Bango Boingo

    COALition? Is that meant to be ironic? If you hadn’t noticed, it’s the ALP that looks after coal mining interests these days…

    BBB

  12. Bingo Bango Boingo

    COALition? Is that meant to be ironic? If you hadn’t noticed, it’s the ALP that looks after coal mining interests these days…

    BBB

  13. Obviously Obtuse

    I never heard adequately explained why labor didnt just introduce legislation for a mining tax and be done with it. What possible advantage was there in all these announcements? I’m off at the crack of dawn or earlier to get 400 kgs of horse poo for the garden. start of school holidays in victoria. Yee haaa!
    Teaching IT in a country high school with a 500% increase in computers and about a 10% in tech support has been very trying. RAdio national host had gillard pinged as a lawyer who doesn’t believe in anything. What’s her agenda apart from power?

  14. Obviously Obtuse

    I never heard adequately explained why labor didnt just introduce legislation for a mining tax and be done with it. What possible advantage was there in all these announcements? I’m off at the crack of dawn or earlier to get 400 kgs of horse poo for the garden. start of school holidays in victoria. Yee haaa!
    Teaching IT in a country high school with a 500% increase in computers and about a 10% in tech support has been very trying. RAdio national host had gillard pinged as a lawyer who doesn’t believe in anything. What’s her agenda apart from power?

  15. hannah's dad

    BBB
    Yep, you caught it, the COALition thingy I mean.
    And I would partly agree with your statement that the ALP looks after coal interests.
    But I would still consider the COALition more in tune and lock step harmony with mining companies in general and note three specific examples, their support for the anti-RSPT mining companies campaign and their absolute antagonism to the [admitedly minimal] ALP CPRS and their climate denialism.
    Bad as the ALP may be, the COALition is worse and deserving of the capitalization.

  16. hannah's dad

    BBB
    Yep, you caught it, the COALition thingy I mean.
    And I would partly agree with your statement that the ALP looks after coal interests.
    But I would still consider the COALition more in tune and lock step harmony with mining companies in general and note three specific examples, their support for the anti-RSPT mining companies campaign and their absolute antagonism to the [admitedly minimal] ALP CPRS and their climate denialism.
    Bad as the ALP may be, the COALition is worse and deserving of the capitalization.

  17. Nana Levu

    I note the sad departure of Sheikh Leghaei is due tomorrow. http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/show-of-force-as-hundreds-gather-to-farewell-departing-sheikh-20100625-z9s2.html “As a non-citizen, the High Court ruled that Dr Leghaei had no right to be told why ASIO suspected him. Concerns about national security outweighed any rights Dr Leghaei might have to procedural fairness.”

    Seems to have been victim of internal Iranian exile politics. ASIO believed the stories and the Sheikh had no ability to even know what was said about him or to defend himself. Very popular in community including with Christians.

  18. Nana Levu

    I note the sad departure of Sheikh Leghaei is due tomorrow. http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/show-of-force-as-hundreds-gather-to-farewell-departing-sheikh-20100625-z9s2.html “As a non-citizen, the High Court ruled that Dr Leghaei had no right to be told why ASIO suspected him. Concerns about national security outweighed any rights Dr Leghaei might have to procedural fairness.”

    Seems to have been victim of internal Iranian exile politics. ASIO believed the stories and the Sheikh had no ability to even know what was said about him or to defend himself. Very popular in community including with Christians.

  19. Corin

    Mercurius, don’t like it. What do you want. I mean no country has much better than Australia. The ALP may be flawed but it works generally. Howard (even if you hate him) has a reasonable legacy at least on economics. You just hate them all. Why?? It is irrational.

  20. Corin

    Mercurius, don’t like it. What do you want. I mean no country has much better than Australia. The ALP may be flawed but it works generally. Howard (even if you hate him) has a reasonable legacy at least on economics. You just hate them all. Why?? It is irrational.

  21. paul walter

    The Nanalevu quote from the newspapers,#8 goes to something usually unconsidered but to this writer,a definite drift or tendency developing in law over the last decade.
    Think Howards weird security,ASIO sedition laws, then the inevitable outcome in the Dr Haneef case and continuing thru to Dr.Leghai’s case in the post Howard era. Good old Legal Narrowism.
    Some will squawk “absolutiam”, but weren’t the regimes imposed on Haneef and now Leghai a bit “absolutist” or just plain arbitrary themselves?

  22. paul walter

    The Nanalevu quote from the newspapers,#8 goes to something usually unconsidered but to this writer,a definite drift or tendency developing in law over the last decade.
    Think Howards weird security,ASIO sedition laws, then the inevitable outcome in the Dr Haneef case and continuing thru to Dr.Leghai’s case in the post Howard era. Good old Legal Narrowism.
    Some will squawk “absolutiam”, but weren’t the regimes imposed on Haneef and now Leghai a bit “absolutist” or just plain arbitrary themselves?

  23. Mercurius

    Corin, I want socially, environmentally and economically progressive government. Gillard looks like she’ll be 0.8 out of 3.

    The ALP may be flawed but it works generally.

    You don’t live in NSW, do you? Or QLD. Or WA. VIC perhaps? SA, at a pinch?

    If by “works” you mean installs zombie governments whose raison d’etre is to be in power so that they can be in power, then yah, your statement has legs.

    I “hate” them all?? WTF? Was happy with Rudd. Would be happy with Turnbull. Was happy with Hawkie.

    You really can’t get over the fact that not absolutely everyone is cock-a-hoop at this bloody little charade, can you?

    You’ve got tunnel-vision, and you and Ron it seems won’t be comfortable until you’ve called out everybody and made us see the error of our ways. Sign of a guilty conscience, much?

    Even Gillard’s said publicly words to the effect that she understands some people are angry and upset, and she has some work to do to convince them. It’s good enough for her, so why can’t you try turning your gloat-meter down to, like, 7 out of 10, and give us some frickin’ peace?

  24. Mercurius

    Corin, I want socially, environmentally and economically progressive government. Gillard looks like she’ll be 0.8 out of 3.

    The ALP may be flawed but it works generally.

    You don’t live in NSW, do you? Or QLD. Or WA. VIC perhaps? SA, at a pinch?

    If by “works” you mean installs zombie governments whose raison d’etre is to be in power so that they can be in power, then yah, your statement has legs.

    I “hate” them all?? WTF? Was happy with Rudd. Would be happy with Turnbull. Was happy with Hawkie.

    You really can’t get over the fact that not absolutely everyone is cock-a-hoop at this bloody little charade, can you?

    You’ve got tunnel-vision, and you and Ron it seems won’t be comfortable until you’ve called out everybody and made us see the error of our ways. Sign of a guilty conscience, much?

    Even Gillard’s said publicly words to the effect that she understands some people are angry and upset, and she has some work to do to convince them. It’s good enough for her, so why can’t you try turning your gloat-meter down to, like, 7 out of 10, and give us some frickin’ peace?

  25. Zorronsky

    [email protected] Hot horse shit and the ABC go together these days. Hot that is if it’s straight from muckin’ out or from a heap, good to know somebody else is out in the cold. 1c here at 6am. colder on the bike in the paddock.

  26. Zorronsky

    [email protected] Hot horse shit and the ABC go together these days. Hot that is if it’s straight from muckin’ out or from a heap, good to know somebody else is out in the cold. 1c here at 6am. colder on the bike in the paddock.

  27. tONY

    Commercial news narrative had become “oooh arrr, isn’t she luverly, our first woman PM” (the “Woman’s Day” position) by Thursday evening. Rudd was variously described as “stepping aside”, “handing over” and “standing down”. The harshest language used was “Kevin Rudd fell on his sword”. Red Kez was at least a bit more animated, but he seemed alone in the TV media space. And, much as I don’t like it (for the opposite reasons to most here!), that storyline and the polls so far say she’s going to walk away from this extraordinary act of political bastardry smelling of roses and with clean hands – and will lead the ALP to an election victory within the next 2-3 months. Show’s over folks – move along, nothing to see here… oh, except Kev’s next appearance on Sunrise. Given it appears all he brought to the ALP table was the “Mel & Kochie” vote, and Abbott/Gillard have always been Today regulars, maybe the real story is the breakfast TV ratings? Wag the Dog, anyone?

  28. tONY

    Commercial news narrative had become “oooh arrr, isn’t she luverly, our first woman PM” (the “Woman’s Day” position) by Thursday evening. Rudd was variously described as “stepping aside”, “handing over” and “standing down”. The harshest language used was “Kevin Rudd fell on his sword”. Red Kez was at least a bit more animated, but he seemed alone in the TV media space. And, much as I don’t like it (for the opposite reasons to most here!), that storyline and the polls so far say she’s going to walk away from this extraordinary act of political bastardry smelling of roses and with clean hands – and will lead the ALP to an election victory within the next 2-3 months. Show’s over folks – move along, nothing to see here… oh, except Kev’s next appearance on Sunrise. Given it appears all he brought to the ALP table was the “Mel & Kochie” vote, and Abbott/Gillard have always been Today regulars, maybe the real story is the breakfast TV ratings? Wag the Dog, anyone?

  29. Ute Man

    …and now, to complete the purge, News Corp. trains it’s guns solely on the last possible point of resistance: Ken Henry.

    poor bugger my country

  30. Ute Man

    …and now, to complete the purge, News Corp. trains it’s guns solely on the last possible point of resistance: Ken Henry.

    poor bugger my country

  31. Fran Barlow

    Personally, I think she should give it until November so that she can look more her own person and less like the result of an ALP machine men putsch.

    She needs to work over Abbott in parliament and look strong where Rudd looked poor.

    Ironically, one of the things she can do with this time will be to cite with approval, Rudd’s list of achievements and his desire to work for the re-election of the ALP. Anyone who feels sympathy can then be enlisted on seeing what he started get carried forward. Given that none of us could wink at an Abbott victory, this is how it must go.

  32. Fran Barlow

    Personally, I think she should give it until November so that she can look more her own person and less like the result of an ALP machine men putsch.

    She needs to work over Abbott in parliament and look strong where Rudd looked poor.

    Ironically, one of the things she can do with this time will be to cite with approval, Rudd’s list of achievements and his desire to work for the re-election of the ALP. Anyone who feels sympathy can then be enlisted on seeing what he started get carried forward. Given that none of us could wink at an Abbott victory, this is how it must go.

  33. Robert Merkel

    Anybody have a look at the article in Rolling Stone about Stanley McChrystal yet?

    The first bit is what’s gotten him sacked, the last page is actually more pertinent – Afghanstian is an unwinnable war and sooner or later Obama should bite the bullet.

  34. Robert Merkel

    Anybody have a look at the article in Rolling Stone about Stanley McChrystal yet?

    The first bit is what’s gotten him sacked, the last page is actually more pertinent – Afghanstian is an unwinnable war and sooner or later Obama should bite the bullet.

  35. Fran Barlow

    Clearly in the prescient department:

    Rudd’s daughter’s book

  36. Fran Barlow

    Clearly in the prescient department:

    Rudd’s daughter’s book

  37. Ute Man

    I read the Stanley MacChrystal article yesterday trying to distract myself from the domestic shenanigans Robert.

    I’m somewhat surprised that admitting the war in Afghanistan is unwinnable is even newsworthy. Despite the claims of untold mineral riches, theories about making the place safe for oil pipelines, rescuing the Afghans from themselves, finding Osama Bin Laden, stamping out terrorism or any of the other half baked excuses we’ve been fed, it seems that the Afghan war exists merely for us to be at war. For that, it is a perfect playground: no nasty jungles, lots of open air space, plenty of plausibly deniable western style social objectives, and absolutely NOTHING of value at stake like oil or gas.

    It’s like a paintball ground for the military-industrial complex. It keeps them fed and watered while the fatally wounded US funds it with debt levels so astronomical they can quite literally never be payed back.

  38. Ute Man

    I read the Stanley MacChrystal article yesterday trying to distract myself from the domestic shenanigans Robert.

    I’m somewhat surprised that admitting the war in Afghanistan is unwinnable is even newsworthy. Despite the claims of untold mineral riches, theories about making the place safe for oil pipelines, rescuing the Afghans from themselves, finding Osama Bin Laden, stamping out terrorism or any of the other half baked excuses we’ve been fed, it seems that the Afghan war exists merely for us to be at war. For that, it is a perfect playground: no nasty jungles, lots of open air space, plenty of plausibly deniable western style social objectives, and absolutely NOTHING of value at stake like oil or gas.

    It’s like a paintball ground for the military-industrial complex. It keeps them fed and watered while the fatally wounded US funds it with debt levels so astronomical they can quite literally never be payed back.

  39. Paul Burns

    That is spooky, Fran.
    My (I hope) final comment on it all. I hate the way Gillard came to power. But really, if you thumb your nose at the Caucus, Labor tradition, (and factions) and try to run the ALP like a 1&C or 18C Cabal, what else can you expect. Though nobody’s told the Liberals yet, the Age of Absolutism is long over.
    And, as I’ve said before, Abbott is cactus. That said I’m pretty close to sharing Mercurius’s sentiments, And I’ve been thinking about it for days, trying to come to a position on it. And all my thoughts have been guided by one principle over all, as I said on an earlier thread. Abbott is the real enemy.

  40. Paul Burns

    That is spooky, Fran.
    My (I hope) final comment on it all. I hate the way Gillard came to power. But really, if you thumb your nose at the Caucus, Labor tradition, (and factions) and try to run the ALP like a 1&C or 18C Cabal, what else can you expect. Though nobody’s told the Liberals yet, the Age of Absolutism is long over.
    And, as I’ve said before, Abbott is cactus. That said I’m pretty close to sharing Mercurius’s sentiments, And I’ve been thinking about it for days, trying to come to a position on it. And all my thoughts have been guided by one principle over all, as I said on an earlier thread. Abbott is the real enemy.

  41. tONY

    “this is how it must go”, “Abbott is the real enemy.”?

    Sounds like “Whatever it takes”. Better write Arbib a letter of support.

  42. tONY

    “this is how it must go”, “Abbott is the real enemy.”?

    Sounds like “Whatever it takes”. Better write Arbib a letter of support.

  43. Ute Man

    Paul Burns wrote:

    And I’ve been thinking about it for days, trying to come to a position on it. And all my thoughts have been guided by one principle over all, as I said on an earlier thread. Abbott is the real enemy.

    I tend to think of him as a pantomime character – elevated far beyond his station. He provides colour and noise and compliance for his handlers. He is a distraction. The enemy is our degraded political process and our hollowed out political parties.

    So in a sense the enemy is people like me who like to whinge but can’t find the time to get involved in political processes, who could in theory prevent evil like Minchin and Arbib and the rest of the puppet masters from corrupting our institutions for the benefit of a tiny minority of the population.

    In a sense it’s a very first world disease – in places where people have little material possession to lose they take to the streets with rocks when stuff like this happens. If peak oil and climate change are as devastating to economies as they appear to be, how long before we are forced to do the same? The cynical power brokers are driving us toward destruction.

    It is the “no compromise” attitude of the resource sector that is truly frightening. Even after the political parties cooked up the weakest, most easily manipulated carbon reduction scheme, with endless concessions that place the burden of mitigation on ordinary Australians, the sector said no. Turnbull and Rudd’s compromise wasn’t enough. They demanded utter loyalty and sought to resist a minor change to the taxation system just because they could. Just as an exercise of power. Nothing more than a demonstration of contempt to display just how far above the law the global resource industries are.

  44. Ute Man

    Paul Burns wrote:

    And I’ve been thinking about it for days, trying to come to a position on it. And all my thoughts have been guided by one principle over all, as I said on an earlier thread. Abbott is the real enemy.

    I tend to think of him as a pantomime character – elevated far beyond his station. He provides colour and noise and compliance for his handlers. He is a distraction. The enemy is our degraded political process and our hollowed out political parties.

    So in a sense the enemy is people like me who like to whinge but can’t find the time to get involved in political processes, who could in theory prevent evil like Minchin and Arbib and the rest of the puppet masters from corrupting our institutions for the benefit of a tiny minority of the population.

    In a sense it’s a very first world disease – in places where people have little material possession to lose they take to the streets with rocks when stuff like this happens. If peak oil and climate change are as devastating to economies as they appear to be, how long before we are forced to do the same? The cynical power brokers are driving us toward destruction.

    It is the “no compromise” attitude of the resource sector that is truly frightening. Even after the political parties cooked up the weakest, most easily manipulated carbon reduction scheme, with endless concessions that place the burden of mitigation on ordinary Australians, the sector said no. Turnbull and Rudd’s compromise wasn’t enough. They demanded utter loyalty and sought to resist a minor change to the taxation system just because they could. Just as an exercise of power. Nothing more than a demonstration of contempt to display just how far above the law the global resource industries are.

  45. tssk

    One thing that has amused me about all of this.

    All the right wing bloggers and opinionistas suddenly declaring the Rudd was a good bloke done over.

    This is how Abbott can win. Pulling over some of the disillusioned and convincing the rest to donkey vote.

  46. tssk

    One thing that has amused me about all of this.

    All the right wing bloggers and opinionistas suddenly declaring the Rudd was a good bloke done over.

    This is how Abbott can win. Pulling over some of the disillusioned and convincing the rest to donkey vote.

  47. billie

    Ah, I hope you are wrong Mercurius.

    Being comfortably off, I despair of the conditions people on social welfare live under and get angry that billionaire miners can control governments to increase their obscene profits, even though they throw me a few crumbs as dividends.

    I want to leave Australia a fit place for our grandchildren to thrive in. At the moment its looking like a hot concrete jungle with no job security where “user pays”. Imagine Rio de Janerio in the eastern hemisphere where the well off live cheek by jowl with people so poor, they make crafts out of rubbish, they don’t go to school. Where police safety campaigns consist of shooting boys as though they are dingoes.

  48. billie

    Ah, I hope you are wrong Mercurius.

    Being comfortably off, I despair of the conditions people on social welfare live under and get angry that billionaire miners can control governments to increase their obscene profits, even though they throw me a few crumbs as dividends.

    I want to leave Australia a fit place for our grandchildren to thrive in. At the moment its looking like a hot concrete jungle with no job security where “user pays”. Imagine Rio de Janerio in the eastern hemisphere where the well off live cheek by jowl with people so poor, they make crafts out of rubbish, they don’t go to school. Where police safety campaigns consist of shooting boys as though they are dingoes.

  49. Sam

    Ute Man 14, there is nothing in that article to suggest that News Ltd is training its guns on Ken Henry, who is in any case big enough and ugly enough to look after himself.

    Fran 15, Gillard can’t wait until November because that is when the Victorian election will be. She should go early.

  50. Sam

    Ute Man 14, there is nothing in that article to suggest that News Ltd is training its guns on Ken Henry, who is in any case big enough and ugly enough to look after himself.

    Fran 15, Gillard can’t wait until November because that is when the Victorian election will be. She should go early.

  51. Paul Burns

    Ute Man,
    I agree the political process is utterly degraded. As for Labor losing its way, it did that under Hawke. There’s never going to be a another Gough. Nobody in the present ALP would have the guts. As for going out on the street and protesting, that doesn’t work anymore. Believe me, I’ve done too much of it to not know. As for the far left, they’re deluding themselves. Now I stay at home and write me book., have no Party connections of any kind – not in Socialist Alliance any more, dropped out months ago, unable to deal with totalitarian personalities. I gave up trying to change the ALP from the inside years ago. (Keating’s military pact with Suharto was the last straw for me. We all knew the ALP was like this. Why the shock and horror- addressed to everybody.. What we need is the revolution that is never going to come.

  52. Paul Burns

    Ute Man,
    I agree the political process is utterly degraded. As for Labor losing its way, it did that under Hawke. There’s never going to be a another Gough. Nobody in the present ALP would have the guts. As for going out on the street and protesting, that doesn’t work anymore. Believe me, I’ve done too much of it to not know. As for the far left, they’re deluding themselves. Now I stay at home and write me book., have no Party connections of any kind – not in Socialist Alliance any more, dropped out months ago, unable to deal with totalitarian personalities. I gave up trying to change the ALP from the inside years ago. (Keating’s military pact with Suharto was the last straw for me. We all knew the ALP was like this. Why the shock and horror- addressed to everybody.. What we need is the revolution that is never going to come.

  53. Fran Barlow

    I don’t think the Vic election matters as far as the Federal poll is concerned Sam. Indeed, it might be good for both.

  54. Fran Barlow

    I don’t think the Vic election matters as far as the Federal poll is concerned Sam. Indeed, it might be good for both.

  55. Zorronsky

    Tony Abbott is about to appear [repeat] with Red Kerry in last nights 7.30.report.
    Watch it and weep. There is no real alternative to the present Government Julia et al.

  56. Zorronsky

    Tony Abbott is about to appear [repeat] with Red Kerry in last nights 7.30.report.
    Watch it and weep. There is no real alternative to the present Government Julia et al.

  57. Tyro Rex

    It is the “no compromise” attitude of the resource sector that is truly frightening. Even after the political parties cooked up the weakest, most easily manipulated carbon reduction scheme, with endless concessions that place the burden of mitigation on ordinary Australians, the sector said no. Turnbull and Rudd’s compromise wasn’t enough. They demanded utter loyalty and sought to resist a minor change to the taxation system just because they could. Just as an exercise of power. Nothing more than a demonstration of contempt to display just how far above the law the global resource industries are.

    I think the key is to look at how they deal with third-world resource-rich countries. They buy them. And now they are applying that model to this country.

  58. Tyro Rex

    It is the “no compromise” attitude of the resource sector that is truly frightening. Even after the political parties cooked up the weakest, most easily manipulated carbon reduction scheme, with endless concessions that place the burden of mitigation on ordinary Australians, the sector said no. Turnbull and Rudd’s compromise wasn’t enough. They demanded utter loyalty and sought to resist a minor change to the taxation system just because they could. Just as an exercise of power. Nothing more than a demonstration of contempt to display just how far above the law the global resource industries are.

    I think the key is to look at how they deal with third-world resource-rich countries. They buy them. And now they are applying that model to this country.

  59. AlanJae

    There’s been plenty of e-ink dedicated to Rudd’s deposition over the last giggity-odd hours and to be completely honest, the more I read about it the more I’m convinced that there was bugger all legitimacy for it.

    What originally appeared to have been a breathstoppingly hyper-overreaction of pure political naivety now seems to have been an act of spiteful skullduggery of the lowest order carried out by a cabal of delusional powerhungry zerobodies.

    Four Corners better be frantically putting something together on this for Monday night.

    Any ideas how this will affect the Green’s vote? I would argue that the recent disillusionment with the Labor party will continue apace once the dust has settled on this calamity.

    That said, go Julia.

  60. AlanJae

    There’s been plenty of e-ink dedicated to Rudd’s deposition over the last giggity-odd hours and to be completely honest, the more I read about it the more I’m convinced that there was bugger all legitimacy for it.

    What originally appeared to have been a breathstoppingly hyper-overreaction of pure political naivety now seems to have been an act of spiteful skullduggery of the lowest order carried out by a cabal of delusional powerhungry zerobodies.

    Four Corners better be frantically putting something together on this for Monday night.

    Any ideas how this will affect the Green’s vote? I would argue that the recent disillusionment with the Labor party will continue apace once the dust has settled on this calamity.

    That said, go Julia.

  61. adrian

    Ute Man @22 – very well said.
    What some people can’t seem to understand is that Rudd was rolled by a concerted and co-ordinated long term campaign against him, organised by powerful vested interests that he threatened – everything else is a smokescreen.

    The events on Thursday were just a culmination of this campaign, brought on not because they thought he was going to lose the election but because they thought he had a good chance of winning it.

    I hope you keyboard lefties who seem so happy with this coup will be cheering from your keyboards as Gillard moves the party inexorably to the right.

    Ute Man is right – Abbott is a cartoon villian and it matters not who wins the next election, for the first time ever I couldn’t give a stuff.

  62. adrian

    Ute Man @22 – very well said.
    What some people can’t seem to understand is that Rudd was rolled by a concerted and co-ordinated long term campaign against him, organised by powerful vested interests that he threatened – everything else is a smokescreen.

    The events on Thursday were just a culmination of this campaign, brought on not because they thought he was going to lose the election but because they thought he had a good chance of winning it.

    I hope you keyboard lefties who seem so happy with this coup will be cheering from your keyboards as Gillard moves the party inexorably to the right.

    Ute Man is right – Abbott is a cartoon villian and it matters not who wins the next election, for the first time ever I couldn’t give a stuff.

  63. anthony nolan

    Ute Man @ 22 is right on the money:

    It is the “no compromise” attitude of the resource sector that is truly frightening. Even after the political parties cooked up the weakest, most easily manipulated carbon reduction scheme, with endless concessions that place the burden of mitigation on ordinary Australians, the sector said no. Turnbull and Rudd’s compromise wasn’t enough. They demanded utter loyalty and sought to resist a minor change to the taxation system just because they could. Just as an exercise of power. Nothing more than a demonstration of contempt to display just how far above the law the global resource industries are.

    I went to the mid year performance of my son’s high school performing arts unit last night. That unit is built on a massive investment of time and energy by hugely talented state sector teacher/musicians. As always the performances were prize winningly good, not just proud parent adequate. These kids are good. There isn’t a school in NSW that wouldn’t be capable of producing talented, educated, decent kids like this lot if they were resourced to do so. I would like to have seen the mining sector pay proper tax for a change.

    By happenstance the choral section performed Leunig’s ‘Moron’s Bark’ to great and ironic audience acclaim:

    Late last night when all was dark
    I thought I heard a moron bark
    And as the sound began to die
    I heard another one reply

    And then the sound became a din
    As more and more morons joined in
    And suddenly I realised
    That they were getting organised

    My blood ran cold, my skin turned grey
    Remembering election day
    Was not so terribly remote
    And morons had the right to vote!

    Australia has some nasty things
    The crocodile, the fish that stings.
    The snake, the spider and the shark
    But worst of all, the moron’s bark!

  64. anthony nolan

    Ute Man @ 22 is right on the money:

    It is the “no compromise” attitude of the resource sector that is truly frightening. Even after the political parties cooked up the weakest, most easily manipulated carbon reduction scheme, with endless concessions that place the burden of mitigation on ordinary Australians, the sector said no. Turnbull and Rudd’s compromise wasn’t enough. They demanded utter loyalty and sought to resist a minor change to the taxation system just because they could. Just as an exercise of power. Nothing more than a demonstration of contempt to display just how far above the law the global resource industries are.

    I went to the mid year performance of my son’s high school performing arts unit last night. That unit is built on a massive investment of time and energy by hugely talented state sector teacher/musicians. As always the performances were prize winningly good, not just proud parent adequate. These kids are good. There isn’t a school in NSW that wouldn’t be capable of producing talented, educated, decent kids like this lot if they were resourced to do so. I would like to have seen the mining sector pay proper tax for a change.

    By happenstance the choral section performed Leunig’s ‘Moron’s Bark’ to great and ironic audience acclaim:

    Late last night when all was dark
    I thought I heard a moron bark
    And as the sound began to die
    I heard another one reply

    And then the sound became a din
    As more and more morons joined in
    And suddenly I realised
    That they were getting organised

    My blood ran cold, my skin turned grey
    Remembering election day
    Was not so terribly remote
    And morons had the right to vote!

    Australia has some nasty things
    The crocodile, the fish that stings.
    The snake, the spider and the shark
    But worst of all, the moron’s bark!

  65. Ute Man

    Tyro Rex wrote:

    I think the key is to look at how they deal with third-world resource-rich countries. They buy them. And now they are applying that model to this country.

    Applied I think, and successfully. So, no longer wonder why the NSW Labor party spent $5 on hospitals and umpteen billions on tracks for coal trains and harbor facilities over the last 15 years. Both parties want to hand electricity generation over to the their biggest customers. Yet, there is absolutely no way to stop it.

  66. Ute Man

    Tyro Rex wrote:

    I think the key is to look at how they deal with third-world resource-rich countries. They buy them. And now they are applying that model to this country.

    Applied I think, and successfully. So, no longer wonder why the NSW Labor party spent $5 on hospitals and umpteen billions on tracks for coal trains and harbor facilities over the last 15 years. Both parties want to hand electricity generation over to the their biggest customers. Yet, there is absolutely no way to stop it.

  67. Robert Merkel

    It is the “no compromise” attitude of the resource sector that is truly frightening. Even after the political parties cooked up the weakest, most easily manipulated carbon reduction scheme, with endless concessions that place the burden of mitigation on ordinary Australians, the sector said no. Turnbull and Rudd’s compromise wasn’t enough. They demanded utter loyalty and sought to resist a minor change to the taxation system just because they could. Just as an exercise of power. Nothing more than a demonstration of contempt to display just how far above the law the global resource industries are.

    They’re doing what powerful vested interests always do. Nothing more, nothing less.

    It’s not historically unprecedented, or even unusual. It’s the same rubbish that the health insurance industry does in the US. Or the military-industrial complex pulls in the US. Or the farm lobby in France. Or the farm lobby in the US. Or the farm lobby in Australia, historically.

  68. Robert Merkel

    It is the “no compromise” attitude of the resource sector that is truly frightening. Even after the political parties cooked up the weakest, most easily manipulated carbon reduction scheme, with endless concessions that place the burden of mitigation on ordinary Australians, the sector said no. Turnbull and Rudd’s compromise wasn’t enough. They demanded utter loyalty and sought to resist a minor change to the taxation system just because they could. Just as an exercise of power. Nothing more than a demonstration of contempt to display just how far above the law the global resource industries are.

    They’re doing what powerful vested interests always do. Nothing more, nothing less.

    It’s not historically unprecedented, or even unusual. It’s the same rubbish that the health insurance industry does in the US. Or the military-industrial complex pulls in the US. Or the farm lobby in France. Or the farm lobby in the US. Or the farm lobby in Australia, historically.

  69. Ron

    reality check precous ones , Julia IS our PM , get over it

    now if you want to hav hypocritical pretend outrage (for Rudd) against a Labor Party who’ve been previously vilifying here , you ar convincing no one but by all means prove your ‘soft” convictions and give your first preferense to Liberals

    Whereas oz people will vote Julia in as PM anyway ,
    because Julia has acknowledged what internal Labor Polls said , a Labor loss due to Labor losing its way lately & Rudd showing no inclination to change or listen

    I guess for th faint harted , and mostly not Labor suporters here anyway falsely bleeting , these realitys an inconvenient truth

    (ps/ But then Labor people were very sad for Hawke in same boat as Rudd , but ar realists and still voted for Keating , but to this day never forgot to acknolege Hawke’s wonderful acheivements & persoanal sadness for Hawke personaly VS Labors intersts to keep governing …ditto will occur with Kevin

  70. Ron

    reality check precous ones , Julia IS our PM , get over it

    now if you want to hav hypocritical pretend outrage (for Rudd) against a Labor Party who’ve been previously vilifying here , you ar convincing no one but by all means prove your ‘soft” convictions and give your first preferense to Liberals

    Whereas oz people will vote Julia in as PM anyway ,
    because Julia has acknowledged what internal Labor Polls said , a Labor loss due to Labor losing its way lately & Rudd showing no inclination to change or listen

    I guess for th faint harted , and mostly not Labor suporters here anyway falsely bleeting , these realitys an inconvenient truth

    (ps/ But then Labor people were very sad for Hawke in same boat as Rudd , but ar realists and still voted for Keating , but to this day never forgot to acknolege Hawke’s wonderful acheivements & persoanal sadness for Hawke personaly VS Labors intersts to keep governing …ditto will occur with Kevin

  71. kuke

    An interesting article: Coal-seam gas tax confusion reigns as Rudd exits.

    I’ll guess that CSG will eventually get the special concessions, but it’s interesting times given the controversy over it.

  72. kuke

    An interesting article: Coal-seam gas tax confusion reigns as Rudd exits.

    I’ll guess that CSG will eventually get the special concessions, but it’s interesting times given the controversy over it.

  73. Ute Man

    From the links posted highlighted by Mark at Hoyden About Town,

    Guy Rundle

  74. Ute Man

    From the links posted highlighted by Mark at Hoyden About Town,

    Guy Rundle

  75. Mark

    @37 – and a very good post by Rundle it is!

  76. Mark

    @37 – and a very good post by Rundle it is!

  77. Ute Man

    Y’know Mark on a micro level you covered the same ground as Rundle, his piece is more of a background companion to the far more effective personalisation of what has happened to Rudd.

    I am left to wonder just how long the jugglers of discontent can keep all those balls in the air. The over-extended credit, the over priced housing, the co-opting of a large section of the population into admirers of expensive diversions (I include myself in the last group) and the inevitable day of reckoning with the environment (either fuel shortages or climate events or resource conflicts).

    I had taken to mollifying myself for some time with this quote:

    So we get the leaders we deserve and we elect, we get the companies and the products that we ask for, right? And we have to ask for different things. – Paul Gilding

    but really, it’s rubbish. We get none of it because the choices are illusory.

  78. Ute Man

    Y’know Mark on a micro level you covered the same ground as Rundle, his piece is more of a background companion to the far more effective personalisation of what has happened to Rudd.

    I am left to wonder just how long the jugglers of discontent can keep all those balls in the air. The over-extended credit, the over priced housing, the co-opting of a large section of the population into admirers of expensive diversions (I include myself in the last group) and the inevitable day of reckoning with the environment (either fuel shortages or climate events or resource conflicts).

    I had taken to mollifying myself for some time with this quote:

    So we get the leaders we deserve and we elect, we get the companies and the products that we ask for, right? And we have to ask for different things. – Paul Gilding

    but really, it’s rubbish. We get none of it because the choices are illusory.

  79. Ootz

    Thanks for the link ute man. Mes sentiments exactement, mais avec une dose de Guy Debord.

  80. Ootz

    Thanks for the link ute man. Mes sentiments exactement, mais avec une dose de Guy Debord.

  81. Mark

    @39 – Ute Man, in a way, my article, Rundle’s and Sparrow’s are all coming at the same point from different directions. Anyway, I might put up a post linking to Rundle’s piece to ensure it gets maximum exposure.

  82. Mark

    @39 – Ute Man, in a way, my article, Rundle’s and Sparrow’s are all coming at the same point from different directions. Anyway, I might put up a post linking to Rundle’s piece to ensure it gets maximum exposure.

  83. Fascinated

    Definitely agree – Guy Rundle’s words are nicely put – the last para very speccy.

    And now for some good news for LP’s gardeners and cooks extradordinaire in SA.
    The recently installed Adelaide Community Walyo Yerta garden in the parklands is producing and sharing and new members are welcome. When people and nature work together, great things happen. Remember when vegetables and fruit looked great, tasted and smelt, well, fresh and special. http://www.adelaidecitycouncil.com/community/community-gardens.html

  84. Fascinated

    Definitely agree – Guy Rundle’s words are nicely put – the last para very speccy.

    And now for some good news for LP’s gardeners and cooks extradordinaire in SA.
    The recently installed Adelaide Community Walyo Yerta garden in the parklands is producing and sharing and new members are welcome. When people and nature work together, great things happen. Remember when vegetables and fruit looked great, tasted and smelt, well, fresh and special. http://www.adelaidecitycouncil.com/community/community-gardens.html

  85. Fran Barlow

    A modestly non-political question:

    For some time I’ve been noticing an ad for a beer product which seems to be making a claim about one’s “man brand”. As far as I can tell, one’s man brand is a claim about how authentic and worthy a male one is.

    In one of the parables, a man is approached by a female presented as desirable, available, adult and non-inebriated in a festive context. The male struggles with how to respond because she is apparently the sister of a close male friend called Steve. Ultimately, despite strong suggestions that the female in question is open to at least a degree of physical (if not sexual) intimacy, the male declines purely on the basis of his connection with her brother.

    As he walks away the voice-over declares, every choice affects your man brand [nods to Steve as he walks past; sister looks over her shoulder at him departing with bemusement] Stay premium gentlemen!

    I found it hard to explain the moral of this parable without invoking notions of a kind of patriarchal sexual arbitrage and/or perhaps closeted homosexuality. Hubby was unable to do any better and insisted that were he “in the market” and interested, the fact that a woman was his close friend’s sister would be of no import.

    If I’ve missed something in this iteration of masculine identity, I’d be interested in hearing what it is.

  86. Fran Barlow

    A modestly non-political question:

    For some time I’ve been noticing an ad for a beer product which seems to be making a claim about one’s “man brand”. As far as I can tell, one’s man brand is a claim about how authentic and worthy a male one is.

    In one of the parables, a man is approached by a female presented as desirable, available, adult and non-inebriated in a festive context. The male struggles with how to respond because she is apparently the sister of a close male friend called Steve. Ultimately, despite strong suggestions that the female in question is open to at least a degree of physical (if not sexual) intimacy, the male declines purely on the basis of his connection with her brother.

    As he walks away the voice-over declares, every choice affects your man brand [nods to Steve as he walks past; sister looks over her shoulder at him departing with bemusement] Stay premium gentlemen!

    I found it hard to explain the moral of this parable without invoking notions of a kind of patriarchal sexual arbitrage and/or perhaps closeted homosexuality. Hubby was unable to do any better and insisted that were he “in the market” and interested, the fact that a woman was his close friend’s sister would be of no import.

    If I’ve missed something in this iteration of masculine identity, I’d be interested in hearing what it is.

  87. Ute Man

    Fran,

    The beer ad – it’s that the sister is an easy mark. The implication being that the man in question is of such sexual attractiveness that he can afford to turn away sexual opportunities. A related joke is often repeated about motor scooters being like a fat woman – fun to ride but don’t let your friends catch you. (yes it’s horrible).

  88. Ute Man

    Fran,

    The beer ad – it’s that the sister is an easy mark. The implication being that the man in question is of such sexual attractiveness that he can afford to turn away sexual opportunities. A related joke is often repeated about motor scooters being like a fat woman – fun to ride but don’t let your friends catch you. (yes it’s horrible).

  89. Fran Barlow

    Oh … I see … so her status as conquest is diminished because she’s the friend’s sister based (presumably) on the fact that he has an easy entree? This is how he’s protecting his ‘man brand’ — in the same way that serious actors don’t endorse cola or do soapies?

    I hadn’t considered that — but doesn’t this still trade somewhat on the idea that she owes her brother?

  90. Fran Barlow

    Oh … I see … so her status as conquest is diminished because she’s the friend’s sister based (presumably) on the fact that he has an easy entree? This is how he’s protecting his ‘man brand’ — in the same way that serious actors don’t endorse cola or do soapies?

    I hadn’t considered that — but doesn’t this still trade somewhat on the idea that she owes her brother?

  91. CJ Morgan

    Hmmm… yesterday I tried to post something here about a weird thing that happens when you search for ‘larvatus prodeo’ on Google, but my comment seems to have disappeared into the ether. I suspect it was spaminated due to a particular word that comes up as the lead result in the search.

    If this comment gets through, perhaps one of the moderators could try that Google search and you’ll see what I mean.

  92. CJ Morgan

    Hmmm… yesterday I tried to post something here about a weird thing that happens when you search for ‘larvatus prodeo’ on Google, but my comment seems to have disappeared into the ether. I suspect it was spaminated due to a particular word that comes up as the lead result in the search.

    If this comment gets through, perhaps one of the moderators could try that Google search and you’ll see what I mean.

  93. tigtog

    Fran, I think it’s a bit more complicated than that. She’s obviously flirting with him, making the first moves, so the easy entree is a direct invitation from her and nothing to do with her brother. I think it’s more to do with the fact that a lot of blokes really don’t like the thought of one of their mates dating a sister or other woman they have a close emotional relationship with, and they expect their mates to know that and accept that women in their family circle are off-limits.

    I hypothesise that this reluctance to have a mate date a sister only occurs when the brother and mates engage in sexist claptrap posturing as part of their male bonding, and that’s considered OK towards other women, but they get squicked at the thought of those attitudes towards their sisters/cousins/friends. Obviously, in male groups where such posturing does not occur, the squick dynamic would be absent.

  94. tigtog

    Fran, I think it’s a bit more complicated than that. She’s obviously flirting with him, making the first moves, so the easy entree is a direct invitation from her and nothing to do with her brother. I think it’s more to do with the fact that a lot of blokes really don’t like the thought of one of their mates dating a sister or other woman they have a close emotional relationship with, and they expect their mates to know that and accept that women in their family circle are off-limits.

    I hypothesise that this reluctance to have a mate date a sister only occurs when the brother and mates engage in sexist claptrap posturing as part of their male bonding, and that’s considered OK towards other women, but they get squicked at the thought of those attitudes towards their sisters/cousins/friends. Obviously, in male groups where such posturing does not occur, the squick dynamic would be absent.

  95. Paul Burns

    In theory, mates don’t complicate things by getting it off with their mates’ sisters/girlfriends. In theory. Maybe I mixed with a seedy lot when I was younger – some of them certainly were men whose sexual morality was worse than aley cats; a few of them I wouldn’t have trusted alone in a room with my mother – or maybe I’m just a cynic because I’ve seen too many men lose all sense when they’ve had a rush of blood from the brains to the balls, but I’d say this ad is propagating an ideal – and there’s no doubt there’s lots of decent men out there who would behave as the bloke in the ad did, and fortunately I know far more of them than the other type. The fact that the ad is propagating decent behaviour for men greatly heartens me. I doubt that it has anything to do with latent homosexuality. Rather I think its playing on the not exclusively male ideals of loyalty and honour.

  96. Paul Burns

    In theory, mates don’t complicate things by getting it off with their mates’ sisters/girlfriends. In theory. Maybe I mixed with a seedy lot when I was younger – some of them certainly were men whose sexual morality was worse than aley cats; a few of them I wouldn’t have trusted alone in a room with my mother – or maybe I’m just a cynic because I’ve seen too many men lose all sense when they’ve had a rush of blood from the brains to the balls, but I’d say this ad is propagating an ideal – and there’s no doubt there’s lots of decent men out there who would behave as the bloke in the ad did, and fortunately I know far more of them than the other type. The fact that the ad is propagating decent behaviour for men greatly heartens me. I doubt that it has anything to do with latent homosexuality. Rather I think its playing on the not exclusively male ideals of loyalty and honour.

  97. tigtog

    Paul, the “don’t complicate things” theory works for me too – what happens if your mate and your sister go out, and it ends badly, and then you’re expected to take a side? Easier to just sidestep it.

  98. tigtog

    Paul, the “don’t complicate things” theory works for me too – what happens if your mate and your sister go out, and it ends badly, and then you’re expected to take a side? Easier to just sidestep it.

  99. tigtog

    CJ Morgan, we are in fact well aware of it and have been flogging tech monkeys mercilessly about it for weeks now. We hope for an improvement soon.

  100. tigtog

    CJ Morgan, we are in fact well aware of it and have been flogging tech monkeys mercilessly about it for weeks now. We hope for an improvement soon.

  101. Paul Burns

    tigtog @ 49,
    True. And that’s sometimes a consideration. Plus the inherent embarrassment of your best mate walking into the bedroom every morning where one is in bed with his sister. However, I reiterate, I think it has a lot more to do with ideals of loyalty and honour which have a very long pedigree in male society going back hundreds and hundreds of years. The vast majority of us blokes do try to live by these ideals, you know. For many of us its something we’re brought up with, as for many of us, our first great disillusionment with our own gender is that a large minority do not share those values of loyalty and honour.

  102. Paul Burns

    tigtog @ 49,
    True. And that’s sometimes a consideration. Plus the inherent embarrassment of your best mate walking into the bedroom every morning where one is in bed with his sister. However, I reiterate, I think it has a lot more to do with ideals of loyalty and honour which have a very long pedigree in male society going back hundreds and hundreds of years. The vast majority of us blokes do try to live by these ideals, you know. For many of us its something we’re brought up with, as for many of us, our first great disillusionment with our own gender is that a large minority do not share those values of loyalty and honour.

  103. CJ Morgan

    Cheers tigtog – I’ll revert to lurking mode now 🙂

    Fran Barlow – I don’t “get” that ad either, and I’m a bloke. I suspect I may be in a somewhat different demographic to the target market – too old, functioning brain etc.

    When I was young, my sister had her wicked way with several of my mates at various times. I can’t recall any particular difficulties that came out of it.

  104. CJ Morgan

    Cheers tigtog – I’ll revert to lurking mode now 🙂

    Fran Barlow – I don’t “get” that ad either, and I’m a bloke. I suspect I may be in a somewhat different demographic to the target market – too old, functioning brain etc.

    When I was young, my sister had her wicked way with several of my mates at various times. I can’t recall any particular difficulties that came out of it.

  105. Fran Barlow

    Hmm ok … I suppose tt and PB that makes some sense. Still, maybe if a mate dates your sister, you are obliged to be especially upright in your dealings (or at least think harder before (acting)?

    Does this mean he wants greater licence to act on impulse?

  106. Fran Barlow

    Hmm ok … I suppose tt and PB that makes some sense. Still, maybe if a mate dates your sister, you are obliged to be especially upright in your dealings (or at least think harder before (acting)?

    Does this mean he wants greater licence to act on impulse?

  107. AdamTucker

    #44 saying “it’s horrible” doesn’t justify posting hate. Moderators?

  108. AdamTucker

    #44 saying “it’s horrible” doesn’t justify posting hate. Moderators?

  109. Ute Man

    yes AdamTucker – for too long the motor scooter has been the butt of scooterist derision. Rise up scooters and burn your… ah forget it.

    I’m not sure “man brand” has a squeamish/squick factor but I’m hardly the representation of the authentic aussie bloke, I just know a lot of them.

  110. Ute Man

    yes AdamTucker – for too long the motor scooter has been the butt of scooterist derision. Rise up scooters and burn your… ah forget it.

    I’m not sure “man brand” has a squeamish/squick factor but I’m hardly the representation of the authentic aussie bloke, I just know a lot of them.

  111. Peter Wood
  112. Peter Wood
  113. Paul Burns

    PW @ 56,
    I thought something like that was going to happen from a statement naude by a Labor backbencher on ABC TV on Friday morning. A much better idea, I reckon.
    Adam Tucker @ 54,
    Oh, FFS, here we go again. I was going to let this pass, but since you are back into this holier than thou crap, I object strenuously to the offensive sexist assumptions in tigtog’s last paragraph @ 47, but I wouldn’t dream of asking for it to be moderated because I believe in free speech. Perhaps you could show the same tolerance for difference of opinion.

  114. Paul Burns

    PW @ 56,
    I thought something like that was going to happen from a statement naude by a Labor backbencher on ABC TV on Friday morning. A much better idea, I reckon.
    Adam Tucker @ 54,
    Oh, FFS, here we go again. I was going to let this pass, but since you are back into this holier than thou crap, I object strenuously to the offensive sexist assumptions in tigtog’s last paragraph @ 47, but I wouldn’t dream of asking for it to be moderated because I believe in free speech. Perhaps you could show the same tolerance for difference of opinion.

  115. Peter Wood

    I would like to see something more concrete about this story about the carbon tax. It is now quoting from an interview with Laurie Oakes where she mentions the need for a consensus on a carbon price and working towards that – nothing explicit about a carbon tax.

  116. Peter Wood

    I would like to see something more concrete about this story about the carbon tax. It is now quoting from an interview with Laurie Oakes where she mentions the need for a consensus on a carbon price and working towards that – nothing explicit about a carbon tax.

  117. tigtog

    @Paul,

    I did take pains in @47 to point out that only some men engage in the behaviour I was describing. I’ve seen it being done often enough, and I bet you have too.

  118. tigtog

    @Paul,

    I did take pains in @47 to point out that only some men engage in the behaviour I was describing. I’ve seen it being done often enough, and I bet you have too.

  119. AdamTucker

    #57 it isn’t about free speech here – it is about hateful deriding of fat women.

  120. AdamTucker

    #57 it isn’t about free speech here – it is about hateful deriding of fat women.

  121. tigtog

    @60 – he’s describing/repeating a derisive joke for the purposes of sociological comparison. I’ve blogged extensively on fat acceptance, and he put enough caveats on it for me.

  122. tigtog

    @60 – he’s describing/repeating a derisive joke for the purposes of sociological comparison. I’ve blogged extensively on fat acceptance, and he put enough caveats on it for me.

  123. kuke

    Carbon Tax: “But do not trust to hope. It has forsaken these lands.”

  124. kuke

    Carbon Tax: “But do not trust to hope. It has forsaken these lands.”

  125. sg

    Fran, I’m pretty confident without having seen it that the ad you describe is referring to the “honourable” behaviour of not shagging your mate’s sister, and I think tigtog is on the money with her description of squick.

    tony Abbott has now released a 12 point plan (who knew he could count that high?) which is explicitly a back-to-the-future return to Howardism; and simultaneously gloating about getting rid of Rudd. He is a disgusting man and his politics are evil, and it is absolutely first and foremost the responsibility of the ALP to destroy him and his cronies – the liberal party will be sending Julia thank you letters in 20 years if she does that.

    Which isn’t to say that Rudd couldn’t have but if the “back room boys” thought he couldn’t and Julia could, and if they’re proven right, then this is A Good Thing. Sad and horrible though the circumstances were. Keep an eye on the alternatives, kiddies!

  126. sg

    Fran, I’m pretty confident without having seen it that the ad you describe is referring to the “honourable” behaviour of not shagging your mate’s sister, and I think tigtog is on the money with her description of squick.

    tony Abbott has now released a 12 point plan (who knew he could count that high?) which is explicitly a back-to-the-future return to Howardism; and simultaneously gloating about getting rid of Rudd. He is a disgusting man and his politics are evil, and it is absolutely first and foremost the responsibility of the ALP to destroy him and his cronies – the liberal party will be sending Julia thank you letters in 20 years if she does that.

    Which isn’t to say that Rudd couldn’t have but if the “back room boys” thought he couldn’t and Julia could, and if they’re proven right, then this is A Good Thing. Sad and horrible though the circumstances were. Keep an eye on the alternatives, kiddies!

  127. Fran Barlow

    I wonder, given we have discussed the man brand, what this other ad from the <Offical Currency of the Beer Economy comapres, in terms of iterations of the normative masculine:

    Tooheys New

    Here, the ad starts off with escalating transgressions — starting with sending inappropriate text messages to the male friend these were about, to sending them to the male’s girlfriend, them having salacious images attached, to sending them to the mate’s mother, to the question of why your mate’s mother is on your speed dial.

    Another version talks of cutting another man’s grass, with its express sexual double entendre. A further ad in the series has some male assisting a fellow male to urinate by grasping his penis and shaking off for him.

    Juxtaposed with the “stay premium” theme in the other series — what claims are being made here?

  128. Fran Barlow

    I wonder, given we have discussed the man brand, what this other ad from the <Offical Currency of the Beer Economy comapres, in terms of iterations of the normative masculine:

    Tooheys New

    Here, the ad starts off with escalating transgressions — starting with sending inappropriate text messages to the male friend these were about, to sending them to the male’s girlfriend, them having salacious images attached, to sending them to the mate’s mother, to the question of why your mate’s mother is on your speed dial.

    Another version talks of cutting another man’s grass, with its express sexual double entendre. A further ad in the series has some male assisting a fellow male to urinate by grasping his penis and shaking off for him.

    Juxtaposed with the “stay premium” theme in the other series — what claims are being made here?

  129. Fran Barlow

    oops … above should read:

    I wonder, given we have discussed the man brand, how this other ad from the Official Currency of the Beer Economy compares …

    If Mods could fix this and delete this, I’d be pleased.

  130. Fran Barlow

    oops … above should read:

    I wonder, given we have discussed the man brand, how this other ad from the Official Currency of the Beer Economy compares …

    If Mods could fix this and delete this, I’d be pleased.

  131. Fran Barlow

    Bearing in mind Abbotts fudging on whether he did or did not say that victory was within his grasp … Consider: I got rid of Rudd, Abbott boasts :

    And Mr Abbott revealed former prime minister John Howard called him on Wednesday night to congratulate him on the achievement.

    Abbott: He said you have done the greatest thing an opposition leader can – you have secured the collapse of a prime minister,”

    [Abbott] told a meeting of the federal council of the Liberal Party yesterday. ”We know we were going to beat him because he was executed by the powerbrokers.

  132. Fran Barlow

    Bearing in mind Abbotts fudging on whether he did or did not say that victory was within his grasp … Consider: I got rid of Rudd, Abbott boasts :

    And Mr Abbott revealed former prime minister John Howard called him on Wednesday night to congratulate him on the achievement.

    Abbott: He said you have done the greatest thing an opposition leader can – you have secured the collapse of a prime minister,”

    [Abbott] told a meeting of the federal council of the Liberal Party yesterday. ”We know we were going to beat him because he was executed by the powerbrokers.

  133. Paul Burns

    tigtog @ 59,
    You bet I have. btw, I do have the deepest respect for you, and actually enjoy our occasional stoushes. I didn’t even want to bring my reservations about the para up, its just that that sanctimonious little pillock really annoyed me. Now, back to the ad, which, btw is the only one I’ve seen, I do think its about imbuing ideals of honour & loyalty in young men, and perhaps though this is a very long bow, ideals of chivalry, that is the woman giving a nman permission to flirt intensely, safe in the knowledge that his sense of honour will prevent him from abusing her trust.

    However, reading Fran’s descriptions of the other ads @ 64, none of which I think I’ve seen, I may be wrong in giving it a benign interpretation, and you, tigtog may very well be right.

  134. Paul Burns

    tigtog @ 59,
    You bet I have. btw, I do have the deepest respect for you, and actually enjoy our occasional stoushes. I didn’t even want to bring my reservations about the para up, its just that that sanctimonious little pillock really annoyed me. Now, back to the ad, which, btw is the only one I’ve seen, I do think its about imbuing ideals of honour & loyalty in young men, and perhaps though this is a very long bow, ideals of chivalry, that is the woman giving a nman permission to flirt intensely, safe in the knowledge that his sense of honour will prevent him from abusing her trust.

    However, reading Fran’s descriptions of the other ads @ 64, none of which I think I’ve seen, I may be wrong in giving it a benign interpretation, and you, tigtog may very well be right.

  135. AdamTucker

    @61 – that argument wouldn’t get a bad racist joke very far I’m sure.

  136. AdamTucker

    @61 – that argument wouldn’t get a bad racist joke very far I’m sure.

  137. Paul Burns

    IMHO, Adam Tucker, I think you might be a mischief maker. Perhaps.

    Re spam on Google link to LP. If you put in Larvatus Prodeo on the search bar and click on I’m feeling lucky – you’ll go straight on to LP. I’ve been doing it for yonks.
    Fran @ 66,
    Yeah. Makes you think twice, don’t it? Though I think his and Howard’s gloating over this political tragedy, which, in terms of Rudd’s fatal flaw, assumes Shakespearian or Sophoclean proportions will do the Liberal Party no good at all. In fact its sure to lose them votes. People know, when it comes to the ALP, the tradition is the Party before one’s pewrsonal interests (which Rudd so nobly demonstrated by not contesting the leadership ballot) and I think Julia’s actions will be interpreted in that way.
    Shucks, I’m an idealist.

  138. Paul Burns

    IMHO, Adam Tucker, I think you might be a mischief maker. Perhaps.

    Re spam on Google link to LP. If you put in Larvatus Prodeo on the search bar and click on I’m feeling lucky – you’ll go straight on to LP. I’ve been doing it for yonks.
    Fran @ 66,
    Yeah. Makes you think twice, don’t it? Though I think his and Howard’s gloating over this political tragedy, which, in terms of Rudd’s fatal flaw, assumes Shakespearian or Sophoclean proportions will do the Liberal Party no good at all. In fact its sure to lose them votes. People know, when it comes to the ALP, the tradition is the Party before one’s pewrsonal interests (which Rudd so nobly demonstrated by not contesting the leadership ballot) and I think Julia’s actions will be interpreted in that way.
    Shucks, I’m an idealist.

  139. Ute Man

    Fran Tucker wrote:

    Another version talks of cutting another man’s grass, with its express sexual double entendre. A further ad in the series has some male assisting a fellow male to urinate by grasping his penis and shaking off for him.

    That’s a little more clear cut: male homosexuality is funny (not to mention just a little bit disgusting) for “real men”. C.F. the endless numbers of times you see the hosts of the footy shows in dresses, making kissy face etc.

  140. Ute Man

    Fran Tucker wrote:

    Another version talks of cutting another man’s grass, with its express sexual double entendre. A further ad in the series has some male assisting a fellow male to urinate by grasping his penis and shaking off for him.

    That’s a little more clear cut: male homosexuality is funny (not to mention just a little bit disgusting) for “real men”. C.F. the endless numbers of times you see the hosts of the footy shows in dresses, making kissy face etc.

  141. Ute "dyslexic" Man

    oooh sorry Fran, I meant Fran Barlow.

    AdamTucker lol look what you dun!

  142. Ute "dyslexic" Man

    oooh sorry Fran, I meant Fran Barlow.

    AdamTucker lol look what you dun!

  143. Ootz

    I’ve been cleaning out the chook shed yesterday, LOOK what I found.

  144. Ootz

    I’ve been cleaning out the chook shed yesterday, LOOK what I found.

  145. tigtog

    Over on the thread discussing the non-religiosity of Julia Gillard, we had a bit of a segue into the semantics of non-belief – atheism vs agnosticism etc etc. It’s a great discussion, but it was off-topic for that thread. For those who want to get it up and racing again, here’s Sir Humphrey to get you started:

  146. tigtog

    Over on the thread discussing the non-religiosity of Julia Gillard, we had a bit of a segue into the semantics of non-belief – atheism vs agnosticism etc etc. It’s a great discussion, but it was off-topic for that thread. For those who want to get it up and racing again, here’s Sir Humphrey to get you started:

  147. Fran Barlow

    That was very drole

  148. Fran Barlow

    That was very drole

  149. tigtog

    I asked that some off-topic discussion be moved from the “A non-religious Prime Minister” thread to over here:

    @OB wrote

    I’m willing to agree that a person called Yeshua or Yehoshua of Nazareth lived in Roman Palestine in the reign of Tiberius, that he was a Jewish religious agitator of some kind, and that he was put to death by the Romans. That’s all perfectly reasonable. The rest of it is just a bunch of fables invented in the following century to make it look as though his life was the fulfillment of Jewish prophecies.

    This is close to my own view, with the addition that there may have been more than one religious agitator named Yeshua/Yehoshua and that after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans and the following diaspora that many of the stories of the various Yeshuas and Yehoshuas accreted to a figure that was held to fulfil prophecies of a Redeeming Messiah – that figure became the Christ.

    The standard comeback is that there were eyewitnesses who could have challenged any falsehoods in circulating stories of the Christ – but I think this is a very naive view of how people actually form beliefs. In our age of electronic communication and databases it is still impossible to convince a Scientology true believer that L. Ron Hubbard was never part of the Manhattan Project team to build a nuclear bomb, because his religious teachings say that he was. Why should people in ancient times be any different in that regard?

  150. tigtog

    I asked that some off-topic discussion be moved from the “A non-religious Prime Minister” thread to over here:

    @OB wrote

    I’m willing to agree that a person called Yeshua or Yehoshua of Nazareth lived in Roman Palestine in the reign of Tiberius, that he was a Jewish religious agitator of some kind, and that he was put to death by the Romans. That’s all perfectly reasonable. The rest of it is just a bunch of fables invented in the following century to make it look as though his life was the fulfillment of Jewish prophecies.

    This is close to my own view, with the addition that there may have been more than one religious agitator named Yeshua/Yehoshua and that after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans and the following diaspora that many of the stories of the various Yeshuas and Yehoshuas accreted to a figure that was held to fulfil prophecies of a Redeeming Messiah – that figure became the Christ.

    The standard comeback is that there were eyewitnesses who could have challenged any falsehoods in circulating stories of the Christ – but I think this is a very naive view of how people actually form beliefs. In our age of electronic communication and databases it is still impossible to convince a Scientology true believer that L. Ron Hubbard was never part of the Manhattan Project team to build a nuclear bomb, because his religious teachings say that he was. Why should people in ancient times be any different in that regard?

  151. Katz

    This review is a powerful evocation of the way Australia used to be and shows tendencies of becoming again, though in perhaps an even more mean-spirited way than before.

  152. Katz

    This review is a powerful evocation of the way Australia used to be and shows tendencies of becoming again, though in perhaps an even more mean-spirited way than before.