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39 responses to “Saturday Salon”

  1. Jacques de Molay

    Are there still some Mr Bungle fans in the house?

    Some very good news to hand about the potential of a Mr Bungle reunion. Later this month Mike Patton, Trey Spruance & Trevor Dunn (the non-Australian based ex-Bungle members) will be performing together on stage for the first time since Bungle broke up 10 years ago. It will be as part of John Zorn’s Cobra featuring a San Francisco based lineup.

    Cobra is
    fred frith guitar
    trey spruance guitar
    scott amendola drums
    kenny wollesen drums
    william winant perc
    rob burger piano
    dave slusser keys
    mike patton vox, electronics
    chris brown electronics
    david rosenboom electronics
    timb harris violin
    joan jeanrenaud cello
    mark dresser bass
    trevor dunn bass
    john zorn prompter

    One hopes good things will come from this development.

    Speaking of Patton here is a clip of him & friends performing Luciano Berio’s Laborintus II, a moderon concert chamber opera at the Holland Festival in Amsterdam in June.


  2. FDB

    Well J de M, that is good news.

    I’ve been waiting for the salon thread, cos I wanted to whinge about the recent comments format. But now it’s fixed.

    So you know… all good.

    I’m in the studio today trying to run the session and play the drums with a sprained ankle. Have I bitten off more than I can chew? Possibly, but chew I shall. Like the wind.

  3. gregh

    I did not know there were australian based ex-Bungles

  4. dylwah

    just a quick thanks. the other day there was mention of the “wine dark sea”. this set off a ghost of a memory that tickeled my brain for a few days. having an incomplete line running thro my head was annoying. i found it anon and it was ” . . . the sloeblack, slow, black, crowblack, fishingboat bobbing sea.” from Under Milk Wood. so i read the rest of the play for the first time in over 25 years, it was fun. so thanks again for the reminder.


  5. Pavlov's Cat

    with a sprained ankle

    Sustained in the single-malt Scrabble game?

    Dylwah, how funny, I’ve just been reading Dylan Thomas too, on his home town of Swansea:

    I was born in a large Welsh town at the beginning of the Great War – an ugly, lovely town (or so it was and is to me), crawling, sprawling by a long and splendid curving shore where truant boys and sandfield boys and old men from nowhere beachcombed, idled and paddled, watched the dock-bound ships or the ships steaming away into wonder and India; magic and China, countries bright with oranges and loud with lions; threw stones into the sea for the barking outcast dogs; made castles and forts and harbours and race tracks in the sand; and on Saturday summer afternoons listened to the brass band, watched the Punch and Judy, or hung about on the fringes of the crowd to hear the fierce religious speakers who shouted at the sea, as though it were wicked and wrong to roll in and out like that, white-horsed and full of fishes.

    ‘Bright with oranges and loud with lions.’


  6. James T

    @3 See Clinton McKinnon on Wikipedia.

    Secret Chiefs 3 have often risen to fill that Bungle-shaped gap in my life — better than any of Patton’s projects have — so if Trey Spruance and Mikey have made up and could maybe record together again, that’s great. Of course, they might merely be playing together in ‘Cobra’ as its nature nullifies their butting of heads…

  7. Paul Burns

    And me ana a mate were discussing Dylan;s “Do Not go Gentle into that Good Night” the other day. There must be something in the air.

  8. Fine

    Went to a party where there was both Germaine Greer and Nicola Roxon in attendance. Good fun.

  9. gregh

    @6 thankyou James T – I had heard of neither.

  10. billie

    Can I brag about my Alice’s Restaurant moment?

    The moronic pig who dumped the rubbish out of his car onto my nature strip also dumped the addressed envelop that contained his birthday card from a female admirer.

    His parents are probably too young to know Alice’s Restaurant. He will learn shortly!

  11. j_p_z

    billie #10 — just make sure you sit him on the Group W bench.

    I went to see “Inception” the other day. Nice rollicking joyride, and Nolan is a helluva craftsman, but to what end? Plus the indeterminacy of that last shot was irritating: the audience deserves a resolution. But you have to admit, anyone who can put you on the edge of your seat anticipating what a toy is going to do, has cast a very strong spell indeed.

    What sticks in my craw is the number of worn-out tropes one is forced to employ, to justify that over-a-hundred-mil budget. What did La Jetee cost, like fifty bucks?

    After the movie…

    MYSELF: Yoiks. Did we just see a Lovecraft re-write of “Neuromancer,” or a Gibson re-write of “Unknown Kadath”?

    A FRIEND: Who’s Lovecraft?

    MYSELF: Man, I wish I was you.

  12. Casey

    But you have to admit, anyone who can put you on the edge of your seat anticipating what a toy is going to do, has cast a very strong spell indeed.

    Can you tell me – did I miss a part of the movie where you get an explanation as to why this is proof of anything? Why would it not topple over in a dream? I mean, the dreamer can dream that the toy loses balance and topples over – so how is that the measuring stick of where you are?

  13. Casey

    Sorry about that block thing. I incepted them incorrectly and look, madness. Speaking of I have a question:


    Is that offensive to people with mental illness?

    And the words moron, imbecile and idiot (from a spurious and discredited lexicon once used to describe degrees of mental disability) – would using them be offensive to some folks here? Lunatic? Would that be offensive?



  14. j_p_z

    Don’t read this comment if you want to see “Inception” fresh!

    Casey — I think the issue is, the totem proves to you that you aren’t in somebody *else*’s dream, since only you know what it feels like, or, in Leo’s case, what it’s for — so that way no one else can dream it.

    The problem for Leo is that he cheated — he used his wife’s totem, as a sentimental reninder, instead of his own; this means she knows what it does, too, and therefore maybe she’s not dead, and he’s been in her dream all along.

    If that sounds confusing, don’t see “Primer.”

  15. Paul Burns

    Casey @ 13,
    I have a close friend with an adult child who is severely autistic. She certainly finds them highly offensive to the point that she finds Dickens’ Barnaby Rudge highly problematic. And she is heavily involved in advocacy for the disabled. So I guess the answer to your question is yes.

  16. tigtog

    @Casey, the Chaser parody-ad treads very close to several lines regarding ableist language there. Since they’re using clinical terms about mental illness to denigrate politicians who do not, so far as we know, actually have any mental illnesses, it’s perpetuating stereotypes of mental illnesses as making people ridiculous and socially undesirable.

    FWD/Forward has a series of posts on ableist word profiles that might be of interest.
    e.g. Crazy, Crazy (in reference to political views), moron, idiot, cretin and as a bonus – spaz/spak and lame.

  17. j_p_z

    Don’t read this if etc etc.

    The problem for Nolan as a film-maker was that Leo’s totem needed to have a visual, filmable aspect, viz., you can’t film what a loaded die or a falsely-weighted chess pawn feels like in your hand; since Leo’s fate is the one that’s at stake for the audience, we have to be able to see his truth-test, whereas the other characters can just feel theirs.

  18. Casey

    Good, thanks for that. I missed that it was his wife’s thing. I fell asleep in the movie believe it or not. It was only for 3 minutes and I swear the carpet was real wool. I didn’t think I missed anything. But I did, obvs.

  19. Casey

    Thank you Tigs. I will check those out.

  20. dylwah

    sigh indeed, i wonder what he would have made of rambutans?

    Casey @ 13, those are blunt weapon words, but for me their offensiveness depends on the context in which they are used.

  21. Helen

    Band practice in the living room today
    Sorry, neighbours!

  22. Liam

    Are there still some Mr Bungle fans in the house?

    JdM, James T, one is not a Mr Bungle fan, so much as one is a Mr Bungle survivor. I’m in remission praying against a relapse.
    Casey, TT, and Jacques Chester—there’s a discussion Laura and I had with some others about the use of the word “lame” which shows up in google, but the resuscitated LP seems to be missing the entire of February 2009.

  23. Liam

    And quite a few other months, indicated by the archive.
    Also there are a few posts [ahem] which have had interesting things done to their comments fields.

  24. tigtog

    @Liam, the archives are gradually being restored, month by month. It takes time, and I only do it in my off-peak bandwidth hours.

    There was also an import hiccup with some of the 2005 and some of the 2010 posts early on, leading to some duplicated comments. That one’s a right pain.

  25. Ken Lovell

    Casey @ 13 I believe words like ‘idiot’ and ‘lunatic’ have long since ceased to have any particular or technical application and only have a generalised meaning now. Terms like ‘spastic’ and ‘mongoloid’, on the other hand, have been used clinically in the recent lifetimes of lots of people afflicted by those conditions (or are still used).

    There are words like ‘retard’ that are perhaps not so easy to categorise but surely a useful rule of thumb is that if a word offends a group of people, don’t use it. It’s not like we lack alternatives.

    BTW here in the Philippines, the kids who would once have been called ‘retarded’ or ‘subnormal’ in Australia are called ‘special children’. It’s rather sweet.

  26. Jacques Chester


    Plus the indeterminacy of that last shot was irritating: the audience deserves a resolution.

    Cobb is stuck in a dream at the end of the movie. He goes from Limbo to the 747 instantly and has a moment of disorientation. Everyone else is shown as waking up through the recursive dreams.

    Alternatively, he has been in a dream for the whole film. His father tells him to “come back to reality” at one point.

  27. Jacques Chester

    Latest meme from 4chan is “Captchart“, making little comics based on reCaptcha words.

  28. j_p_z

    More Inception spoiler alerts: avoid, warning!, etc…

    Jacques Chester — your theory points up the problems of using a camera as a narrative pole-star when you’re doing a subject that involves shifting levels of reality and narrative stability. This thing makes Chuang Tzu’s famous “butterfly” problem seem like tic-tac-toe.

    I think your point that Leo doesn’t make the sequenced recursive trip like the others is a good one (hadn’t noticed that when I saw it), but there’s two “film language” issues that muddy the water for me: 1) we all know that sequences like this are often deliberately edited to amp up dramatic momentum, so we ask: on whose authority is this cut chosen? the director’s? the studio’s? the unavoidable internal logic of the situation in itself? (it’s less often that last option than it oughta be). And 2) if the issue had been decided there, then why pose the question again in the last shot? It’s irritating: the top spins longer than we think it should, so we think Oops he’s fucked, but then it wobbles a bit so we think Hey maybe the opposite, but then it cuts off without a decision either way. I thought that was cheap: it would have been a far stronger emotional ending to decide one way or the other.

    Personally I think Leo is stuck in his wife’s dream the whole time, just b/c of something she said: “Chased all over the world by mysterious secret corporations??! Does that sound like *reality* to you?!!”

  29. FDB

    PC – no, sustained during last weekend’s Grudgematch – some WA expats play an annual game on the day of the second Western Derby, then go watch the big one in a pub somewhere.

    Fair dinkum, no bullshit, I got tackled late from behind, a split second after slotting a pass to our CHF who kicked the goal that won us the game by a point [a bit more interesting than the “real” Derby, which is increasingly a cakewalk and an exercise in schadenfreude]. The large fellow concerned came down with his hip on my lower leg, and the rest is painful history. No wait, present and a little future too.

    Happily, the injury (rolled inwards) is such that playing the hi-hat pedal is one of the least painful things I can do. It’s the shambling from the control room to the various recording spaces, picking my way in and out from behind the drumset, trying not to trip over anything that’s the killer. And driving my manual car to the studio and back.

  30. Pavlov's Cat

    *ow ow ow*

  31. terangeree


    You know, if you get the revs right, you can change gears in a manual without using the clutch.

  32. Nick

    Mods, have I been modded on the State of the EV thread? Not appearing in recent comments. Perhaps a case of the auto-moderator being averse to lengthy, boring accounting equations?

  33. p.a.travers

    Did my usual thing going through the Mags.Still upset by the slow process of what is happening to a woman going crazy in a Bali Prison.Still have a lot of sympathy for Indonesians,and feel that Australians have locked themselves into some terribly bad results for Australians because of the inability of thinking clearly,whereas there is an abundance of tired objection to being more thorough.So I also visited a newspaper site,where a bacteria enzyme is able to convert its potential to a useful fuel.I suspect this will hit the newspaper stories in Aust., and my own query regarding the consistency of Bob Brown’s “Green” attitudes will haunt me,at least.Somewhat reinforced by Leo Simpson of the Silicon Chip Magazine who clearly exercises my type of thoughts re a particular objection to matters.Found the New Scientist oddly peeving me again.This time about disease aftermaths when a human catastrophe occurs.Where they tend to conclude I find fault,not that they maybe wrong,it is what they haven’t mentioned in a particular time period,and with countries mentioned have high population density,which doesn’t mean always a negative result.Pakistan is becoming personal for me,even though the number of Pakistanis I have met and know is very minimal.Owner Builder Mag. really shows what can be achieved with a minimal requirement for pre-existing built in home status to doing that yourself,if, you have the expensive land already got.Coming back to this edition even five years from now, for me, will be a return to a deeper sense of disillusionment.Perhaps it is this night.The courage of Duncan Rhoads of Queensland based Nexus Magazine, that I specifically force myself to buy, never ceases to amaze me. As an unrelated matter,I wish I had the patent and government right to test materials in volcanic activity as it is and any flow from it.Imagine having stacks and stacks of glass marbles readied to have lava flow over them,and later see what happens.Glass undergoes some unusualities generally under high temperatures,but a large mass of individual units spherical, who knows what could happen if some were surviving above the lava line.I know plastic bottles wouldn’t last very long.Wanting sometimes to go to Indonesia and Malaysia to assess the Orang Utan palm tree matter myself.The idea of providing useful work and incomes for poorer folk are where my empathies are.And well,on the spot there maybe deeper ways to achieve that by determiningly convert both biomass and machinery to new options.Palm oil itself may be abled to be more thoroughly valuable by some simple procesess using liquid flow and rapid temperature inversions.So perhaps turning motorbikes to mulching capacity of remaining growth back to the soil.And all these native to country conservationists on even less incomes than me,I would guess,seem not to get much that is useful from a country like Australia.The rainforest removal has increased the local near soil temperature that then makes also possibility of disastrous water run off.To me the high temperature could be an oppurtunity and the soil problem, may also advance a possible new way of approaching the problem.Giving the oRANG uTANS extra distance to travel in for food rewards and social needs,maybe,only testing the desirability of grown within the palms fruits thus also suggesting to locals other crops they could grow.Something always breaks down when I suggest something though,and I think it is those people who love seeing humans and creatures in pain.

  34. patrickg


    I’m not so sure, Jacques; just because we didn’t *see* Cobb fall through the recursive layers, doesn’t mean that he didn’t. As JPZ alludes, why pose the question twice?

    I do agree that one or the other would have been stronger, but was nonetheless happy with the film – I thought it had an thematic and emotional core the Prestige entirely lacked, a core that renders any “twist” like questions more academic than in the Prestige, where it was really only a pretty twist with nothing else, and propelled by to unappealing characters at that.

  35. Fascinated

    Tony talks with the President of Nauru – does Australia need Tony’s “guided democracy”? A separate thread?

  36. Paul Burns

    Review of a book about climate-change denying scientists, etc., that I’m sure some LP-ers will be interested in.


  37. Quog

    Interesting commentary about the difference between those that “get it” – typically young politically aware “twitterati” and the greater mass of suburban Australia who are completely unengaged in this election.


  38. Roger Jones

    1, 2, 6

    Great fan of the Patton ouvre – when the 15 and 16 year old offspring and I roadtrip, Mr Bungle is high on the CD request list. Will check out the Secret Chiefs 3 – thanks JT

    Re insults – no one touches ultramaroon – it’s reserved for … well … ultramaroons!

  39. Ambigulous

    A Chinese general advocates democracy