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16 responses to “Time Magazine endorses Marx, notices class struggle”

  1. dave

    I guess conventional wisdom doesn’t want to revisit the idealogical debate around wealth and class so ignoring Marx is the easiest option. Instead we have the post-structuralist dialog that seems to attribute the crappy state of the advanced economies to everything but the fundamental premise of capitalism. I think it’s a slightly sophisticated version of smoke and mirrors but it’s also sustained by the lack of a visible alternative.

    Maybe Julia could start quoting a bit of Marx…

  2. paul burns

    Not sure the Occupy movement is exactly dead. Dormant, perhaps. The organisation etc I gather is still there, and with the right trigger it might rise again. (I hope.)
    Disappointing having TIME predicting a revolution though. If that’s what they are doing. Means it probably won’t happen. Or its a long, long way off.

  3. Golly Gosh

    Capitalism has faced many crises before and always came out the other side bigger and stronger.

    I’m old enough to remember the gloomy days of stagflation that gripped much of the western world in the 1970s. The doctors of capitalism (economists) including Milton Friedman patched up the patient and things went well (with a few hiccups) until recently. Hundreds of millions of people were dragged out of poverty by capitalism between then and now (rise of the Chinese middle class, the ascension of the Asian tigers etc).

    What is most fascinating about our current epoch is that we can watch much of doctoring being played out on the Web.

    Remember the Trillion Dollar Coin proposal? This idea (or at least its current incantation) went from Beowulf in the blogosphere to big name economists like Krugman then into the Obama Administration andthe Fed for contemplation. It may have been ultimately rejected (at least for now) but it was absolutely fascinating to to see this story unfold in real time, live from our computer screen.

    Arguably the Web will ultimately make capitalism more resilient as it will bring the minds of capitalism’s doctors together in a hitherto impossible way.

    But then again, maybe I’ve been drinking too much coffee …

  4. Hoa Minh Truong

    Karl Marx, a dishonest while he had been getting the income support from Friedrich Engels, a wealthy family in England, but Marx wrote the books to condemn, create the hatred the rich people. Do you accept a man who gets your help, but he condemns and creates the hatred to you and your family?. But the most Karl Marx pupil have treated the bad behavior to people and called” the morality of revolution”.
    A humble honest people, they try to hard work for the better living, but the dishonest rob, trick and the other bad action. A high educated level people as Karl Marx, after fled to England as the refugee, he had to do something to improve the living condition as the most refugee today, but he didn’t, indeed Marx wrote the books to teach the bad people how to kill, rob and enslave people without remorse and criminal free. Since the communist movement has started from October 1917 at Russia, there was more than 100 million killed by the name of revolution. Communist have created the serious crime, but they feel happy to do with the name of revolution, then they killed robbed to people with the cold blood. In Vietnam, after winning the war without prediction on April 30, 1975, a high ranking cadre, central communist member, who has 56 years with communist party, Mr. Nguyen Ho, who told to his comrades at Saigon:” their house, we occupy-their wives, we take and their children to be enslaved ” ( this information being into my first book” the dark journey: inside the reeducation camps of Vietcong”, I also wrote the Karl Marx evil’s theory in this book)
    The most communist leader as Lenin, Mao Ste Tung, Ho Chi Minh and the others become the saint and when the democratic leaders come to the country as China, they pay the respect to Mao portrait, despite Mao killed more than 65 million people since 1949 to 1976.
    Karl Marx created the hatred and condemned the wealthy people, he called Capitalist, but the peak human who come from the working class, they stand up and occupy the government, those have no knowledge and experience about the national management would become the national leader of communist party, they called themselves as Marx’s view:” Proletarian”, but nowadays, the most” proletarians” as Wen Jiaobao to be billionaire with asset estimates $ 2, 7 billion. In Vietnam, there is about 700 proletarians of communist party, who are the millionaires without working, each one has the asset from $ 100 to 300 USD. ( Mr. Nguyen Tan Dung, Prime Minister, his asset estimates up to $ 1,8 billion USD, but his wage is as the dole in US or Australia). So the most proletarian of communist become the Red capitalist or” bloody capitalist”. The so called Class struggle is just a title that covers the crime of communist.
    The democratic country have the free market, of course those often have the problem as joblessness ( any country has the problem), the economy being recession sometimes and restore…The economic cycle is inevitable, but the economy is not collapse, the democratic country have the rescue plan to help those friends being difficult.
    The capitalist country couldn’t self destruct, because its fundamental base is strong and free market is the security net to protect its economy and they have the self rescue plan. However the Karl Marx economic teaching failed badly, so Russia, the Eastern Europe communist bloc collapsed, actually the Eastern German people recognized the Western German have the good life.
    The leftover communist movement states have to find the way to survive, so China, Vietnam have to apply an ugly economic patter:” Free market leads by socialism”. China has used the free market, technology and stolen invention to improve the economy, and they became the second largest in the world, that doesn’t Karl Marx teaching, but the capitalist rescues socialism.
    The capitalism or socialism are not perfect, but socialism of Karl Marx master mind has became the global disaster, victim of master Marx is up 100 million, but he is still adoring by someone, who are not know the realistic consequence of Karl Marx theory. Let’s watch the China, Vietnam, North Korea, Cuba, those are the Karl Marx pupil, then everyone can recognize how bad of Karl Marx instruction. However the capitalist today is quite different in the Marx period, the wealthy people pay tax and help government pay to poor, but in the most communist country are not.
    The so called communist paradise as Karl Marx gave the title, it is a fake cake with multiple colors to attack people following, but when will the paradise come?. Indeed, the communist party lie to people, everyone have to work hard to build up the socialism until will come up to communist paradise. Unfortunately, in the communist country, there is the paradise for communist member, but people live in the hell. In the capitalist country, the class struggle means the worker stand up under the union organization led, they require for wage up, working condition and protection the job. But in communist country, where the Karl Marx’s theory applies exactly, the bloodshed, robbing, jailed are inevitable, the victim couldn’t have the right to talk, indeed the ruthless regime sentence as the counter-revolution crime. Which one better?.

  5. Katz

    The quaint thing about capitalist fanbois is that anything that seems to work they call capitalism. Anything that seems not to work they call something else.

    Said fanbois seem to forget that since 2008 the world economy displays a vague facsimile of life only because of the most massive socialisation of debt in the history of the world.

    Yet some call it capitalism. It is to laugh.

  6. indigo

    @2 Paul: Occupy is alive and well, just in places that don’t speak English:

    The Anti-Media Monopoly Movement

    What’s Next


  7. Golly Gosh

    Katz: “Yet some call it capitalism. It is to laugh.”

    If you are referring to my comment note that I also find the term capitalism problematic. However according to Marxist theory we live in a capitalist system and the OP is about, well, about Marx.

    I was almost going to explain this point but chose not to because I knew more sophisticated and astute readers would not appreciate being patronized. 😉

  8. paul burns

    Mr Ho,
    I presume you have read at least some Marx.
    One of my lecturers in the philosophy of history once more or less described The Communist Manifesto is written for the stupid.
    So it isn’t too hard to understand.
    Apart from the manifesto, and passages in his work where Marx’s thinking is relevant for the philosophy of history, and several unsuccessful goes at Das Kapital I really haven’t got too much into him. But then again, I’ve never got past the first chapter of Adam Smith’s Wealth of Nations Vol.I, either, one of the few 18c works I’ve attempted I’ve not been able to read cover to cover.
    I do fear you are a little confused about Marx’s life. As I understand it he is more relevant for his theories about class and class structure as it pertained to 19th century capitalism in England – which was a unique period. He was also one of the founding theorists of economic history.

  9. paul burns

    Mr Hoa. Sincere apologies for spelling your name incorrectly. It was a typo.
    Indigo @ 6,
    Much appreciated.

  10. Golly Gosh

    I think Scrutton got it right about a previous incantation of Occupy:

    Scruton first embraced conservatism during the student protests of May 1968 in France. Nicholas Wroe wrote in The Guardian that Scruton was in the Latin Quarter in Paris at the time, watching students overturning cars to erect barricades, and tearing up cobblestones to throw at the police. “I suddenly realized I was on the other side. What I saw was an unruly mob of self-indulgent middle-class hooligans. When I asked my friends what they wanted, what were they trying to achieve, all I got back was this ludicrous Marxist gobbledegook. I was disgusted by it, and thought there must be a way back to the defence of western civilization against these things. That’s when I became a conservative. I knew I wanted to conserve things rather than pull them down.”

    What I remember most about Occupy in Melbourne was the stench of piss and faeces, unwashed bodies and a puzzling assortment of discordant placards. I’m not conservative, but I have no time for The Mob.

  11. Link

    I think what we’re seeing is the only logical outcome of usury and I reckon it could probably be mathematically demonstrated. I’m not sure that this would be evidence enough however to try something more humane.

  12. paul burns

    Latest on the Occupy Movement.

    btw, there is an excessively harsh winter in the northern hemisphere at the moment. Which may be why we’re hearing nothing from them.

  13. Brian

    Marx theorized that the capitalist system would inevitably impoverish the masses as the world’s wealth became concentrated in the hands of a greedy few, causing economic crises and heightened conflict between the rich and working classes. “Accumulation of wealth at one pole is at the same time accumulation of misery, agony of toil, slavery, ignorance, brutality, mental degradation, at the opposite pole,” Marx wrote.

    Back last decade I recall a series of economists and economics commentators pointing out that wages for the typical working stiff in the US had not increased for three decades, whereas consumption expectations had increased, as had the price of some essential services, such as housing, health, pharmaceuticals etc.

    Last night Alan Kohler put up a graph that showed the corporates in the US doing very well indeed. Increased profits have shown the US sharemarket steaming ahead of the world average in the rally this year.

    Then he showed a graph of labour costs, which are trending down.

    His take is that there has been a dramatic transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich.

    These figures are a bit old, but the US has a relatively high Gini index at 45 compared to the EU at 30.7 and Oz at 30.5. Moreover it appears to be getting worse, whereas the EU is getting a little better. China, it seems, is following the US.

  14. Hoa Minh Truong

    The capitalist couldn’t be destroyed itself as some body being slept or mind declined. Nowadays, the democratic country have no class struggle as Karl Marx concerned since 19th century, his thoughts is out of date and worthless, the worker have been protecting by law about wage, working condition and they also have the support from union movement. So the rich people couldn’t squeeze the sweat of working class as Karl Marx saw at the prime time of industrial growth in Europe.
    The natural phenomenon changes for every season, the economy in the most country have been moved by the stage. The economy could grow, decline as the cycle, then the job, finance, living condition have been effected. There is no country avoid the economic effect, actually the national economy links to globe.
    The democratic nation could recover after recession and growth again, the record from the recession 1929, 1989, 2005 and now have approved the capitalist has never collapsed. The low income, even jobless people help by the social security scheme, that is the safe net for everyone being hardship, but the communist country have not.
    However, the communist country fear the recession, the dictatorial regime in China, Vietnam could be destroyed themselves when the economy worsen, the job lost, then people stand up, it will create the real revolution and after then, people want to be freedom, free market, of course they love the capitalist. The most Eastern Europe Communist Bloc, and Russia are following the capitalist economic pattern.
    Nowadays, the Karl Marx conception is valueless, its would be stored into the library as the historic event, so whoever want to revive the dead body of Karl Marx’s theory that is pointless.
    China is the royalty communist country, despite Mao Tse Tung who stole Karl Marx’s theory and titled as Maoist. This world largest populous state failed to apply the socialism, that is disaster with tens million dead by famine after Mao taken over mainland in 1949. China survives by using the capitalist way, but the ruthless regime wants to remain the dictatorial government, they apply an ugly economic pattern:” free market leads by socialism. Of course, China scares the collapse if they continue to follow Karl Marx.

  15. paul burns

    Nowadays, the Karl Marx conception is valueless, its would be stored into the library as the historic event, so whoever want to revive the dead body of Karl Marx’s theory that is pointless.



  16. Hoa Minh Truong

    Thank Paul Burns’s comment, it is real, please let me tell something: There is no body could know communist and Karl Marx theory than its victims. Some Western people just know Karl Marx from his books, but when Karl Marx applied into Russia, China, Vietnam, North Korea…the world recognized the terrible theory.
    I am a Vietnamese political refugee, came to Australia since 1983 by a small boat ( you may read my book number 3: From laborer to author, published in US, October 31, 2012, that book tells how I escaped after imprisoned 6 years into the 9 hell of reeducation camps of Vietcong).
    In Vietnam war, from 1973, I graduated from the Political Warfare Academy ( two years trained), the prime rank is First Lieutenant, regular army. I deeply learned the Karl Marx theory and its worse appliance since 1970. In Vietnam battle, I fought against the communist Vietnam both sides: in battle field ( my unit was Black Panther battalion R.F 536) and psychological warfare. I learned Karl Marx theory impartially, it is not as communist member, they learn as parrot.
    After Vietnam war ended on April 30, 1975, I was among 800,000 member of ARVN, public servant imprisoned under the title” reeducation”, but it was the revenge policy, then 100,000 men had never came home, they were killed by execution, starvation, sickness without medicals and labor forced. I was among a survivor, during the period in reeducation camps, I saw Vietcong treated prisoner as animal, they killed my friends, then I promised myself:” if survival, I will write story”. Obviously, I had a secret and risky plan to learn English in camp. In the high tide of revolution, English banned strictly, the new government in Vietnam launched the beaten literacy campaign, so people had to hand over any foreign language books, and burnt down. Actually, English to be condemned as” the imperial American language”.
    In prison camp, if some one dared to learn English, they would be trouble if Vietcong cadre discovered, they would be shot, tortured and any punished kinds to be. I told my mother to tear off a pocket dictionary ( there was only one left in a bed corner of her house), she used the rice glue to create the sheets liked newspaper, and every 3 months, she wrapped food, supplied to me. I ate the food and learned English quietly, there was no one know, I had no allow to spell by sound, but I used a finger as the huge board to write word by word. My inmates considered I was a mad man, but I didn’t mind, so after 5 years, I learned through a pocket dictionary.
    In 1981, Vietcong released as illness, but I has to be probated for 12 months by local government and pubic security force. At last I used a Sweet potato to make a fake stamp and created a fake paper, then I escaped to jungle at Nam Can. In 1982 I escaped successful by a small boat. The first refuge camp was Malaysia ( Pulau Bidong island), UNHCR processed, then 1983 I resettled anew life in Australia.
    During working to pay for cost living, I learned English myself at home and hunted the document, then I spent the other 25 years to accomplish my promise: a first book” the dark journey, inside the reeducation camp of Vietcong released 2010, and second book” Good Evening Vietnam published 2011″
    Dear Paul Burn !
    I am sorry to write some details about my life, because I would like to tell my experience about communist, the Karl Marx’ s pupil. I spent more than 40 years to study about communist and its great master Karl Marx. My communist experts exchanged by my life, actually after 30 years lives in the democratic country as Australia, I have enough concern and compare which on good and bad. I feel very happy to live here, and I have never returned to where I escaped to find freedom, despite I still have my 88 years old mother in Vietnam. I tried to sponsor my mother under the visit visa, but communist government prevented, because I am a senior journalist ( My language) and human right activist.
    I believe my expert and knowledge about Karl Marx, communist movement those could help some body are still misunderstanding the dangerous theory. One again, I thank Paul Burns and everyone read my story.