« profile & posts archive

This author has written 139 posts for Larvatus Prodeo.

Return to: Homepage | Blog Index

137 responses to “Overflow Thread”

  1. paul burns

    Well, After watching The Americans last night I switched to Q&A where I watched in somewhat morbid fascination as Fred Nile revealed himself (yet again) to be the unthinking fool we all know him to be.

  2. philip travers

    What did he say Paul?

  3. Gummo Trotsky

    More heartening news – Mr Mardie-Budgie has had an attack of the collywobbles:

    The Coalition is retreating from its vow to introduce a no-confidence motion in the Gillard government in this session of parliament, with one independent MP suggesting Tony Abbott was too ”frightened” to make such a move…

    Before Parliament broke in late March, the Coalition promised to put a motion of no confidence in the government into the parliamentary schedule for budget week in May, saying it expected the motion would be debated in budget week.

    The Coalition reaffirmed that pledge on May 13…

    Opposition Leader Tony Abbott said then that the motion would be introduced in the next sitting fortnight: ”We said we will move a motion of no confidence. We will move a motion of no confidence in this government.”

    The time frame gives the opposition until June 6, according to the parliamentary sitting schedule, to move its motion.

    But the Coalition now appears less keen to call no confidence since agreeing to pass most of the government’s budget measures.

    On Tuesday morning, a spokesman for Mr Pyne said: ”The Coalition will move a motion of no confidence at the appropriate time…

    Maybe this very model of a modern Aussie Prime Minister is losing his confidence in the power of prayer.

  4. paul burns

    philip travers @ 2,
    He gave several nonsensical sermons, and made himself look like a bigoted friggin’ idiot, especially in regard to Islam. And, he managed to dismiss the Old Testament as having any relevance to Xtan belief. Best summed up as ‘not very bright’.

  5. Ronson Dalby

    Phillip Travers,

    last night’s episode of Q&A is well-worth watching on iview.

    One of the better ones of the year in my opinion especially as it hadn’t any currently-serving politicians.

  6. Paul Norton

    Here’s something for an overflow thread.

  7. Salient Green

    Oh dear, Gina Rinehart calls for sterilisation of the poor.
    Perhaps we should just say uh-huh and maybe draw her out, see what other horrors lurk in that brain.

  8. Peter Murphy

    Salient: the “Daily Currant” is a satirical magazine in the States. The allegation is probably false, and almost certainly defamatory.

  9. Salient Green

    Thanks Peter, perhaps my post should be deleted.

  10. philip travers

    Salient Green good one. We should all share a cow. And They, the meat,scavengers as They are!? My brain is growing so much from being a computer user! That means I am sharp as a injection needle ,traditionally in the time of Jenner!?

  11. Liz

    Peter Murphy, just a note. Satire is generally protected under our defamation laws. It comes under the category of ‘fair comment’, is my understanding.

  12. Chris

    Liz @ 10 – in Australia I think it only applies if its so absurd that a reasonable person would not believe its true. Given the number of people I’ve seen on facebook who have fallen for it, it probably doesn’t go far enough to get protection!

  13. David Irving (no relation)

    Indeed, Chris. Ms Rinehart has made similar statements in the past.

    Didi anyone read the article about a tax on cowboy music, btw? I though it was very amusing. (Disclaimer: I like some country music, and played in a cowboy band many years ago.)

  14. Liz

    You could be right, Chris. It says a lot about Gina Rinehart that it sounds like something she’d say.

  15. Gummo Trotsky


    Indeed, Chris. Ms Rinehart has made similar statements in the past.

    Oh I would love to see this go to court on that basis – a reasonable person might conclude that the article is true because Ms Rinehart has made statements in the past very similar to those in the alleged satire so the views imputed to Ms Rinehart in sufficiently resemble Ms Rinehart’s actual views as to be effectively indistinguishable from Ms Rinehart’s views to a reasonable person.

    That’s a complaint worthy of A P Herbert

  16. Peter Murphy

    There are now 219 results on Google for the Daily Currant link above. I’ve seen four links on Facebook, one on Twitter and of course this blog. I’ll probably get one or two more by the end of the day.

    My problem is not that Rinehart is disliked, but her apparent lack of self-awareness on the reasons why. She probably files all the brickbats under ‘envy’.

  17. Katz

    So the Man on the Clapham Omnibus has been replaced by the gormless dolt on Facebook.

  18. Salient Green

    A lot of people, including me, want/ed to believe it. It’s kind of fun to see someone like her and Alan Jones and hopefully Andrew Bolt self destruct. Yes there was a niggling little scratch that it wasn’t what it appeared to be but the scoop was a lot more fun than checking the source at the time.
    If these people were more like Bill Gates…well they just aren’t.

  19. Lefty E

    Meet the only person who could possibly contrive to lose the ALP the federal seat of Batman. Faceless Feeny!

    Needless to say he has the PMs backing.


  20. Paul Norton

    GregM, Fran B, here’s your cue.

  21. Jacques de Molay

    Feeney desperately trying to keep his snout in the trough, what a surprise.

  22. GregM

    Now Paul, don’t be naughty.

    Fran has gone a’droving and we don’t know where she are.

    But she and I had no great difference on the issue of whether the dropping of the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki caused Japan to surrender or whether, instead, it was the Soviet entry into the war that caused a sudden reversal of Japanese policy. I think we would have agreed that both would have played a part.

    While Fran is not here to state her case I am glad to step up and do it fairly for her.

    Fran’s principal points were, as I recall them:

    [imputed points snipped by moderator – tch!]

  23. Ambigulous

    Congratulations to Kerryn Goldsworthy, who has won the 2013 Pascall Prize (best Australian literary critic).

    For she’s a jolly good winner,
    and so say all of us!!

    A brief interview with Dr Cat is in “The Australian” online.

  24. Lefty E

    Wow. Congrats Pav!

  25. Jumpy
  26. Jumpy

    Oh, and the ABC Election Tally room.

  27. alfred venison

    i’ll say it here: simon crean can jump in a lake. the one to ask an opinion about rudd this week is lindsay tanner. -a.v.

  28. Charlie

    [email protected]:

    In the historical write-ups and reflections of this period of our political history, it will be interesting to see the significance placed on Lindsay Tanner’s decision to leave once Julia Gillard became PM.

    The place doesn’t seem to have been the same (or sane) since!

  29. amortiser

    Lefty E @ 19:

    Indeed needless to say that Feeney has the backing of Gillard for Batman. Bernard Murphy, a fellow partner at Slater and Gordon, was appointed to the Federal Court an appointment much criticised by the legal profession. Nicola Roxon was appointed Attorney General and displayed that she was a complete lightweight in the position. Roxon took over the AWU account at Maurice Blackburn after Slater and Gordon relinquished the account when it discovered a serious unreported conflict of interest by Gillard in her representing the AWU at the time of serious fraud being perpetrated by her then boyfriend.

    Feeney was a TWU official at that time and was present when various tradesmen turned up at the AWU offices seeking payment for renovations carried out on Gillard’s house.

    Shorten has been promoted under Gillard and he was an AWU official complicit in burying the AWU fraud. He was copied into an email seeking AWU executive action to stop a Royal Commission into the AWU as if it went ahead “we are all finished”.

    Many in the Federal ALP who know about the fraud and Gillard’s involvement have been rewarded by her. Others critical like Robert McClelland have been shafted.

    Gillard is currently under investigation by the Victorian Major Fraud squad. If you see this matter get media attention in the next week or so you will know that the string pullers in the ALP have decided that Gillard has to go under the bus.

  30. David Irving (no relation)

    amortiser, I think you’ve banged on about this before. I reckon if there was anything to your allegations (aside from Larry Pickering’s foetid imaginings), the legacy media would be all over Luliar (TM) like a cheap suit.

    I think we’d all (including you) be happier if you just went back to jerking off over crude cartoons of the Prime Minister with a strap-on.

  31. Pavlov's Cat

    Ambigulous and Lefty E, thank youse!*

    Amortiser, your song sheet is showing.

    *A joke

  32. Ambigulous

    youse are welcome, no wuzz!

  33. duncanm


    ignore Pickering if you will, but how about you go and do some research at Michael Smith’s site and come back when you’ve dismissed the evidence.

    You don’t need to cover much. Just the last dozen or so posts working through the missing (or is it non-existent?) files at S&G should be enough.

  34. David Irving (no relation)

    duncanm, I’ve been ignoring Pickering for years. I thought he was dead until one of my redneck Army mates sent me a link to his recent efforts. Barry’s a decent enough bloke otherwise …

    Just out of interest, who the fuck is Michael Smith, and why should I care? (Two questions.)

  35. amortiser

    I’m not sure what you are are talking about. I haven’t commented here since the site came back on line and certainly not on the AWU matter.

    The facts are that Gillard is under investigation by the Victorian Major Fraud Squad. Not a good look for a serving Prime Minister. All her colleagues I have mentioned and who are being backed or rewarded by her were associated with her when the fraud occurred. They know where the bodies are buried.

  36. David Irving (no relation)

    I must be confusing you with some other idiot, amortiser.

  37. amortiser

    That sort of abuse is not a good look, David. I haven’t abused you so I suggest you remain courteous. By all means engage in a discussion about the matter and address the issues but calling people idiots without any provocation doesn’t advance or inform any debate at all.

  38. duncanm
  39. Brian

    DI(nr), read this, then read this.

    Then Google Michael Smith 2UE announcer and read some more.

    Once a few years ago I listened to his radio show when someone was expecting to be interviewed and wasn’t. I had to scour out my brain after the thing finished!

  40. David Irving (no relation)

    (sigh) I don’t reckon I need to apologise to anyone, Brian. He’s really creepy, and not in a good way.

  41. duncanm

    Brian (paraphrased)

    “nothing to see here… move along”.

  42. duncanm

    sorry Brian, that should be “David”.

    My apologies

  43. tigtog

    Following several of Brian’s recent Climate Clippings threads being swarmed by those who repeat the same “anti-warmist” talking points over and over despite them being repeatedly addressed in earlier threads, and then Anna’s recent abortion-election-politics thread experiencing a similar swarming by those who wanted to revive ancient debates that were stale in the 60s, I’d like to remind those of our readers who don’t actually want to see interesting discussions on stoush-magnet topics disrupted yet again by zombie arguments that we recommend that you simply refuse to engage with the would-be threadjackers on the original post and bring that side-discussion here to the Overflow threads instead.

    The more good-faith LP readers who make this a part of their netiquette, the better for substantive discussion on other threads and the more fun for those who really enjoy a good stoush on this thread.

  44. Brian

    tigtog, I had to go out this morning, but now that I’m here I agree. It would be nice if the blog software allowed us to relocate comments from one thread to another.

  45. Ronson Dalby

    You’ve got to love the Liberal Party and it’s followers coming to you real soon now:


  46. alfred venison

    remember, you do not purchase music from i tunes. you purchase a lease. you don’t purchase a book from kindle, you purchase a lease. what you’ve got you can’t give it to your sister when you finish it. you can’t sell your e-textbook after you pass the course. you can’t buy second hand e-textbooks.

    jeremey sear, ‘like in the old days when shops could break intoyour house and stuff back so long as they you a refund, an onymous lefty, 18 july 2009.

    john naughton, “why bowie and the grateful dear are the web’s real visionaries: if you want to know the future on-line ask a musician”, the guardian 21 feb 2010.

    scott monkman, “global erosion of fair use: global copyright law regarding file sharing”, asper review, 2006.

    a record company in the internet era makes as much sense as a scriptorium made in the gutenberg era. -a.v.

  47. Chris

    remember, you do not purchase music from i tunes. you purchase a lease. you don’t purchase a book from kindle, you purchase a lease. what you’ve got you can’t give it to your sister when you finish it. you can’t sell your e-textbook after you pass the course. you can’t buy second hand e-textbooks.

    That is true, though I think situation is in some ways improving. itunes music is no longer DRM’d so you can easily copy it, or if need be even transform it to another format in the future if required. No more buying the same song on LP, then tape, then CD, etc. I think we’ll see similar changes in the future in TV/videos. It’ll be slow, but it’ll happen.

    Ebook DRM is common but not everywhere – so depending on your preference you could possibly stick to non DRM books. And being able to download what you already bought multiple times to different devices is perhaps a trade off people are willing to make in exchange for not owning a copy. And in the US with Kindle books it is possible to lend your ebook to people. Am increasingly seeing the ability to electronically borrow e-books from libraries too which is a pretty big step forward.

    Also not everyone wants to “own” content in the future. I’m pretty happy with a Netflix subscription because there is a lot of stuff out there I just want to watch once, but when I want to watch it, not when some TV/cable station decides to show it.

  48. mindy

    A lot of Nook stuff is now lend-able, with limits on how many times and only between Nook users of course.

  49. tigtog

    Just a reminder that these Overflow threads are the place for zombie stoushes such as the current Rudd vs Gillard stoush which is swamping the Weekly Election 2013 Thread: knock yourself out over here and let other Politics Of The Election discussions happen there.

  50. Ambigulous

    At the time, I thought one of the nastiest sexist attacks on PM Gillard this year was from Dr Greer: “Julia, ya’ve got a big arse!” …. lowering herself almost to Bob Ellis depths of mindless malice.

  51. tigtog

    Greer was doing her stoushbait schtick – she’s become quite the expert at presenting this sort of trolling as just good ol’ Germs having a larrikin lark-about, but I’ve suspected for some time that she scripts them quite carefully. She certainly gathers in plenty of headlines in her net every time she does it.

  52. Mindy

    @Tigtog I think that perhaps just ‘knock myself out’ might be a better option than continuing to flog the disintegrating bones of that particular argument.

  53. Liz

    So, Rudd is talking about wanting changes to the UN’s Refugee Convention. He’s certainly ‘lurched to the right’, now. Any of the Rudd fans upset about this?

  54. Pavlov's Cat

    Mindy, if by ‘knock yourself out’ you mean ‘bash your head against a brick wall’, I am with you. The way that thread went was extremely instructive. I asked a question about how Rudd fans were reacting to his Rudd Redux lurches-to-the-right after their excoriation of Gillard three years ago for same, and the responses were split into Oh Dear, the Silly Old Feminists are At It Again and Ooh Gosh, Look at This Fascinating Micro-detail in the Legislation. No ‘Yes, I am incredibly disappointed and disillusioned, how very dare he’, and nor, I expect, will Liz get any better response or indeed any response at all.

  55. mindy

    Exactly PC, exactly.

  56. Liz

    Yes, I think that’s true, Pav. It’s been a very instructive experiment.

  57. Sam

    Of course Rudd has lurched to the right. He wants to win back voters who have parked themselves the Liberals (or Katter, or whomever).

    As for the disillusioned on the left, he figures they will vote Green and preference Labor. While they loathe what he is doing, they fear Abbott more, and fear trumps loathing every day.

    If Turnbull becomes Liberal leader (a thousand to one odds, but still) this changes everything, because on many issues Turnbull is to the left of Rudd. Plus, while Turnbull is a dick, Rudd is an even bigger dick.

    But for now, Rudd will tack right, righter and rightest.

    You don’t like it? What are you gunna do about it besides fulminate?

  58. Liz

    Sam, I understand completely the politics behind Rudd’s moves. I’m not an idiot.

    The point several of us have been making is that when Gillard was perceived to make similar moves eg; the infamous lurch to the right, those moves were greeted with posts at LP fulminating against her right-wing dreadfulness. Posts about how we couldn’t possibly support her because of this. Posts about how her only purpose as leader was to enable right-wing union leaders. About how moving to the right was politically stupid. Multiple posts about her disgraceful cuts to tertiary education, about the racism of her proposed changes to 457 visas, about the horrors of an austerity budget which would be introduced.

    When Rudd proposes some rather problematic policies, the response here is to explain it away as clever politics and, really not so bad. That’s what we’re angry about.

  59. Pavlov's Cat

    Don’t be silly, Liz, Sam didn’t actually read what any of us actually said. Many of the men at this site skim or simply skip the posts by women. I have often thought of coming back as a sockpuppet called Rock or Biff with a Superman gravatar and saying exactly the same things Pav says, and then doing a comparative analysis of the responses.

  60. Sam

    Liz, you may well be right. I certainly didn’t piss on Gillard from a great height while excusing Rudd.

    However, politics is full of double standards and nauseating hypocrisy. I’m sure if you looked hard enough you’d find people who were willing to give Gillard a free pass who had previously and are currently excoriating Rudd.

  61. Sam

    PC, now you’ve gone and hurt my feelings.

  62. jules

    Since Rudd won the PMship back I barely engage with politics any more. Its a race to the bottom now. Far more than it was with the shite stuff Gillard did.

    There’s less and less difference between Rudd and Abbott every day.

  63. David Irving (no relation)

    Dr Cat, as far as I’m concerned, at least, the most positive thing about Rudd is that he isn’t Abbott. However, neither was Gillard, and I preferred her despite a number of failings.

  64. faustusnotes

    I would have thought modifying the refugee convention would be a bridge too far for any modern labour leader? What is this, a throwback to Menzies? Rudd is the new Menzies? It certainly seems like his rightward lurch is less of a lurch and more of a leap.

  65. Sam

    Rudd is not going to modify the refugee convention. He will give that impression for the purposes of winning the votes of the gullible, of which there are many. After the election (if he is still PM) the idea will be quietly dropped.

    Of course, Rudd’s posturing is not without cost, for it opens the door to Abbott to do the same if he becomes PM. But all Rudd cares about is winning the election. He couldn’t give a toss what an Abbott Australia would look like should it happen. (Those who disagree: please provide one example of Rudd being sincere about anything.)

  66. Liz

    Sam, I’m not talking about you, specifically.

    Pav, I read a blog post a few weeks ago by a male engineer named Kim, who couldn’t understand why he wasn’t getting interviews for jobs to which he was well suited.

    He realised his mistake and added a ‘Mr’ to his name on his cv. Problem solved.

  67. Russell

    “please provide one example of Rudd being sincere about anything.”

    So easy. Rudd’s heart bleeds for ‘folks’ battling the rising costs of living and it’s not only reducing the carbon price that will help. Remember Rudd and Bowen’s baby called Grocery Watch which would bring down prices at the supermarkets. That turned out to be a huge help.

  68. Sam

    Somebody called Kim never realised until a job search he had a M/F first name? I am calling bullshit on that one.

    Or that the engineering profession is male-centric? I am really calling bullshit on that one.

  69. tigtog

    Sam, he knew his name was gender-neutral well enough. He just didn’t appreciate the effect it would have at the head of his CV on employers when combined with the information that Kim was married with kids (which he’d included to show he was a stable, responsible and mature man). Months and months of no callbacks from CV submissions, then everything changing once he added a Mr to his name at the top of the CV.

    His memoir piece on this experience went viral and he’s been interviewed by various MSM outlets since.

  70. GregM

    I have often thought of coming back as a sockpuppet called Rock or Biff with a Superman gravatar

    What a great idea, PC. I wish I had thought of it. From now on when I read your comments I shall think to myself “Biff has spoken” and nod approvingly at the sagacity of the comments.

  71. Chris

    tigtog @ 69 – Yea I agree – I bet what got him filtered from interviews was the “woman with kids” bit because there’s still a lot of employers out there who don’t want to provide family friendly working conditions.

    I may have just worked for fairly good companies (small and large) but in my field where there are few women there is a strong bias to at least interview as many female candidates as possible because they want to address the gender ratios in the workplace. In some cases permission is given to hire a second person when there is woman (or minority) candidate who just missed out. That’s probably only something large companies can afford to do though.

  72. Russell

    Here’s something worth not reading. I think Terry has already read his copy : “Indeed Bowen gives more attention to the Greens rather than the Coalition. Like many in Labor he struggles to find an explanation for the popularity of the Coalition, except perhaps to blame Labor’s alleged alliance with the Greens.”

  73. Tim Macknay

    Pav, I read a blog post a few weeks ago by a male engineer named Kim, who couldn’t understand why he wasn’t getting interviews for jobs to which he was well suited.

    He realised his mistake and added a ‘Mr’ to his name on his cv. Problem solved.

    That’s pretty depressing, really.

  74. Chris

    Russell – I don’t think there is anything “alleged” about the alliance with the Greens – they had a signed agreement 🙂

    I’ve wondered in the past if they’d be better off in a formal coalition like the the Liberals and Nationals, but I guess there’d be the risk that the Greens would lose the protest vote if they did so.

  75. Sam

    Tigtog 69, I would bet good money that the situation you describe is worse in engineering than anywhere else. These people are stuck in the 60s – the 1860s.

    It’s not for nothing that when right wing student politicians go looking for votes they head straight to the engineering faculty.

    There was a study done a few years ago in the US where identical CVs we sent out with both stereotypical white and African American names. Guess who got called back?

  76. Moz of Yaramulla

    Indeed, Sam and others, that’s been my experience (my legal name is gender-ambiguous). I’ve been careful over the years to include hobbies and hints so that people reading my CV can safely assume I’m male. These days a photo also works quite nicely, and was strongly suggested to me by a couple of people recently – that way it’s obvious right from the front page that I’m white, male and old enough to know better. Ahem.

    I work with engineers and have an engineering degree. It’s been entertaining watching the gender and racial mix in tech companies over the years, from companies that quite naturally only include white people with a few women in subservient roles, through the token minority companies to actually natural mixes. Made more interesting in IT because these days there are so many graduates and immigrants who can’t even pretend to be white men on a CV. Even from the privileged side it can feel ugly knowing that you’re only there because you’re white and male (and in one case, aware enough to deliberately trigger someone’s gaydar. Yes, I am willing to go there).

    When job hunting it’s a really ugly ethical question – do I turn down a high-paying job because everyone there is a SWM except the receptionist, or do I take it and perpetuate the problem? There’s no way, IME, at my level to influence the staffing mix. I try hard to avoid managing people (and the people I have managed support that decision), which means I rarely get to influence hiring decisions.

  77. faustusnotes

    Many years ago in health I had to interview for a database developer position, and one of the applicants was a young white man from South Africa (maybe in his early 20s). He wrote his race on his CV. I think he did this because it’s a thing you are taught to do in SA, but my colleagues on the interview panel assumed he was doing it because he was a racist prick, and refused to even consider hiring him. I was really shocked. This would have been maybe 2000, so this guy had undoubtedly grown up under apartheid, but as a kid.

    Of course, writing these things on your CV only works if you’re in the dominant group, as this Kim chap observed. Here in Japan you don’t have to write gender (Japanese names are usually very unambiguous about gender) but you usually have to send a photo … figure that one out!

  78. GregM

    I suppose, though, that if you put your name as Kim on a CV in Japan you might face a well-entrenched Japanese prejudice, not related to gender, in getting job interviews.

  79. Jumpy

    Kim the engineers story will be repeated more often with the advent of paid maternity rules requiring compulsory re employment.
    Not advocating the practice but understand the motives of some employers.

  80. Biff

    Well, I’m called Kerryn which you’d think was reasonably clear, but on the basis of my name I have been assumed to be a man (always by men) on several different kinds of occasions when there’s been no other indication of gender. On the rare occasions when I am identified only as Dr K Goldsworthy, I am always, without fail, assumed to be a man.

  81. Chris

    It’s not for nothing that when right wing student politicians go looking for votes they head straight to the engineering faculty.

    You know an engineering student who actually bothered to vote in student elections? 🙂 One year someone in the engineering faculty had the idea of giving away a free beer to any engineering student who voted in the student election as an incentive to vote (no suggestion of who they should vote for, just that they should vote). They got shut down by the student union though!

  82. alfred venison

    during uni late last century i was receptionist for a few years for a woman podiatrist. many 1st time callers on hearing my voice presumed i was the podiatrist and rushed to tell me about their ingrown toenail &c. problems. -a.v.

  83. Terry

    Peter Hartcher pleads not guilty in Crikey to Kerrie-Anne Walsh’s
    charge that he was Kevin Rudd’s “main media mouthpiece”

  84. David Irving (no relation)

    I am always, without fail, assumed to be a man

    Well, of course, Biff, because everyone knows women don’t have the capacity for higher education … [/snark]

  85. Russell

    … and a real doctor has a stethoscope around his neck

  86. faustusnotes

    GregM, I don’t know how well-entrenched that particular prejudice is nowadays and I don’t know how much it affects Koreans looking for the kind of job that requires a CV. The main problem all foreigners face here is that business Japanese is hideously complex and there is no easy way to learn it. My suspicion is that some small part of the reason that the Japanese cling so obstinately to their business Japanese formalism is that it presents a very convenient barrier to foreigners participating in the workforce (and especially the skilled workforce). We all know that people use English proficiency as a way of screening out foreign applicants – that can be done triply so with business Japanese proficiency.

  87. Jumpy

    Larvatus Prodeo is an Australian group blog which discusses politics, sociology, culture, life, religion and science from a left of centre feminist perspective.

    Honest description of where we are.

  88. alfred venison

    i think you may have misread, mr jumpy. its not a left of centre comma feminist perspective, its a left of centre feminist perspective, as opposed to a right of centre feminist perspective. 😉 -a.v.

  89. Biff

    Number of comments on this thread by people I know to be men or online persons with male-specific names: 51.

    Number of comments on this thread by people I know to be women or online persons with female-specific names: 24.

  90. Brian

    Back in the 1980s at a seminar we had a presentation from an American academic, who told us of research showing that in the US Caucasian males, 6’2″ with blond hair and blue eyes had the best employment prospects, which described him exactly!

    He also said that Caucasian job applicants routinely included photographs with their CV to show what they were and were not.

  91. Brian

    fn @ 64:

    I would have thought modifying the refugee convention would be a bridge too far for any modern labour leader?

    From The World Today:

    While Kevin Rudd flags the need to review the Refugee Convention, a former member of Australia’s Refugee Review Tribunal says the Government should withdraw from the UN treaty altogether.

    Professor Mirko Bagaric, is now Dean of Deakin University’s law school and he says that the Australian Government is being out-strategised by the people smugglers because they know Australia is bound to the convention.

    Read it and you’ll find there some (uncomfortable) issues worth thinking about.

    Unlike Sam @ 65 I’m not going to prejudge what Rudd might have on his mind.

  92. Moz of Yaramulla

    [email protected]: wasn’t it fairly widely reported that women are seen as dominating a conversation when they speak about half as often as men? Which would mean that your 24:51 ratio is very close to the 1:2 “balanced” level. Which is evidently enough to push the more gynophobic members over the edge.

    IME what generates the reaction is not the actual balance, but the topic. Mention any of the key feminist issues and BAM! Classic examples to be had everywhere, but John Scalzi’s blog is a topical one (he’s definitely a misandric femnazi extremist… to some men).

  93. Liz

    [email protected] 87 and alfred venison& 88, I wonder what your intention behind your remarks are? What do you mean by them? Why post them?

  94. Liz

    Brian, Mirko Bagaric also argued that torture was permissible under certain circumstances. I’d be very suspicious if anything he has to say.

  95. alfred venison

    word play. idle banter. nothing sinister. there are right of centre feminists aren’t there? -a.v.

  96. adrian

    Reminds me of a puerile feminist joke.

    Q. How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb?

    A. What kind of stupid question is that?

  97. Tim Macknay

    I received this email this morning. The anti-Rudd faction may it amusing:

    Judy Rudd, an amateur genealogy researcher in south east Queensland, was doing some personal work on her own family tree.

    She discovered that ex-Prime Minister Kevin Rudd’s great-great uncle, Remus Rudd, was hanged for horse stealing and train robbery in Melbourne in 1889. Both Judy and Kevin Rudd share this common ancestor.

    The only known photograph of Remus shows him standing on the gallows at the Melbourne Jail. On the back of the picture Judy obtained during her research is this inscription:

    “Remus Rudd horse thief, sent to Melbourne Jail 1885, escaped 1887, robbed the Melbourne-Geelong train six times, caught by Victoria Police Force, convicted and hanged in 1889.”

    So Judy e-mailed ex-Prime Minister Rudd for information about their great-great uncle, Remus Rudd.

    Kevin Rudd’s staff sent back the following biographical sketch for her genealogy research:

    “Remus Rudd was famous in Victoria during the mid to late 1800s. His business empire grew to include acquisition of valuable equestrian assets and intimate dealings with the Melbourne-Geelong Railroad.
    Beginning in 1883, he devoted several years of his life to government service, finally taking leave to resume his dealings with the railroad.
    In 1887, he was a key player in a vital investigation run by the Victoria Police Force. In 1889, Remus passed away during an important civic function held in his honour when the platform upon which he was standing collapsed.”

  98. Tim Macknay

    Brian, Mirko Bagaric also argued that torture was permissible under certain circumstances. I’d be very suspicious if anything he has to say.

    Yes, that was my reaction as well. I’m entirely unsurprised that Bagaric is advocating withdrawal from the Refugee Convention. I strongly suspect that, if asked, he would also turn out to be in favour of withdrawing from the Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

  99. Biff

    Moz at #92 – yep, exactly. And apparently 30% is the ratio at which women become visible and gynophobes start to get (ahem) jumpy. I do like ‘gynophobic’ very much — that’s often what the problem is, rather than actual misogyny.

  100. Moz of Yaramulla

    Completely off topic (is that what we’re here for?) it continues to amuse me that whenever I search for Yaramulla the search engines give me Yarralumla, because apparently that’s where the important people go. I hereby propose moving said people to Yaramulla in the interests of geographical diversity.

  101. Chris

    Moz @ 100 – when I first saw you nick I thought it was a typo 🙂

    And am I the only one here who keeps thinking that someone with the nick of Biff should have a gravatar image of a mailbox?

  102. Chris

    Tim @ 97 – did Remus come back from the dead?

  103. Ronson Dalby

    Tim @97,

    Just in case someone actually believes that:


  104. alfred venison

    q. how many psyciatrists does it take to change a light bulb?
    a. one, but the light bulb has to really want to change.

  105. Jumpy

    Biff @89 ( and Moz @92 I s’pose )
    Your time spent name counting and the final result is useless when you realise some men here also buy in to and comment, or try to, from a ” feminist perspective. ( no I will not name names )
    As for gynophobic, you seem to have mistaken fear for amusement. ( unless Macquarie have changed stuff again, did Gillard use it in a speech? )

    I fact I’m considering writing a guest post on ” Discrimination in society against men, the untold story “

  106. Ambigulous

    Mr Geoff Shaw, Independent MP for Frankston (Vic. parliament), has been under fire for some alleged rorting.

    Now it turns out he’s participating in a 12 day parliamentary study tour in Europe, prompting further criticism of him and the State Govt.

    The tour includes Berlin, Amsterdam and London. Mr Shaw says he’s “sticking up for the people of Frankston” while on the tour.

    In my view this is long overdue. I’ve not been to Berlin, but on my last visit to Amsterdam I was astounded at the rancorous anti-Frankston prejudice we encountered. One instance may suffice: a waiter in a café apparently detected my Australian accent. Upon learning that I hailed from Victoria, he said, “Houpe you nodt from Frenkston, mijt !!” while curling his Nederlandish lips in an ugly sneer.

    And in London, several English persons said that while they were rather fond of Mount Eliza, they simply couldn’t abide “that horrid little suburb Frankston”. They were simply unwilling to hear a word of robust rejoinder. Appalling!

    More strength to Mr Shaw’s arm, I say. And if he’s willing to extend his efforts for a few further months, Victoria would be all the better for it.

  107. Brian

    Liz @ 94, thanks for the tip.

  108. Linda

    [email protected] ” you seem to have mistaken fear for amusement”

    Sounds like nervous laughter to me.

  109. Val

    I’m one of those people – I forget the term – who likes to read this site but doesn’t usually comment. That’s partly because as a feminist from Melbourne I got a bit burned when I tried to express some opinions about the overblown anti-Gillard rhetoric on John Quiggin’s site. However I just have to say to Liz and all the others trying to get some accountability from the Gillard haters, more power to your arm. Love ya Biff!

  110. Val

    So while I’m going – [email protected] – feminists have never said that patriarchy was ‘good’ for men in an ethical or psychological sense. Being in a system that privileges you on the basis of an attribute (male sex) isn’t good for you in that sense.
    Expectations of males that they conform to certain stereotypes are probably more rigid, and even more damaging to their health and wellbeing, than those imposed on women. One that is a bit close to my heart at the moment is the way little boys are told that they’re not supposed to like pink, even though research shows little children in general prefer colours from the reddish end of the spectrum. It’s only a small thing but so symptomatic of the way patriarchal attitudes limit men’s lives.
    My view of feminism – which I think is common – is that it is not about privileging one sex over the other. It is about allowing all of us to lead more fulfilling lives.

  111. Ambigulous


    Scott Scott
    Morrison Morrison
    Weatherby George Dupree
    Took great
    Care of his Borders,
    Though he was only three.
    Scott Scott Said to his Borders,
    “Borders,” he said, said he:
    “You must never allow
    No end of the brown
    To arrive, or drown at sea.”

    (with apologies)

  112. Ambigulous


    Kev Kev
    National Rudder
    Went on a special spree.
    Kev Kev National Rudder
    Flew up to PNG.
    Kev Kev National Rudder
    Said to himself, said he:
    “I can get right down
    in the mud like a clown
    and stop those boats you see.”

    High Court
    Put up a Judgement,
    Power corrupts, you see!

    (with further apologies)

  113. paul of albury

    Lol ambiguous 🙂 Not sure if it will work so well for those who don’t know the tune.

  114. paul of albury

    This probably belongs in weekly whimsy but here’s disobedience on the double bass – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM2PfjFFYeU

  115. akn

    Then there’s this Wikileaks disclosure from December 2010 in which it is claimed that:

    Senator Farrell, one of the “faceless men” behind the political overthrow of Kevin Rudd and a South Australian right-wing factional powerbroker, believes Ms Gillard was gunning for the prime ministership well before Mr Rudd’s personal support in the polls collapsed.

    The revelation challenges the ALP’s version of events surrounding the leadership challenge – that a reluctant Ms Gillard was drafted by her caucus colleagues at the 11th hour to stand as a candidate against Mr Rudd, whose leadership had become terminal as public support was lost.

    A WikiLeaks cable names Senator Farrell as telling US embassy staff in June last year Ms Gillard was trying to knock off Mr Rudd.

    But of course she was just showing normal ambition in a masculinised political world?

  116. amortiser

    Now why would Feeney be telling such things to the Americans 12 months before the Gillard coup? Maybe he was speculating hugely because surely Gillard wasn’t telling porkies when she said she only reluctantly took action on the day of the knifing.

  117. akn

    Of course, you’re right Amortiser. She was to the ALP as Cinderella to the Dwarves.

  118. amortiser

    I can probably identify the dwarfs but who is the Fairy Godmother and who is Prince Charming.

  119. alfred venison

    yup, and it was so danged important he went off and told the yanks about it. -a.v.

  120. akn

    You sure a.v? Not just big noting and fantasizing? I mean, just making sh*t up?


  121. Biff

    Hearsay at three removes via Wikileaks as reported by The Australian is so very reliable a source, too.

  122. alfred venison

    akn, certain ahem trusted media corporations, which so badly want us to buy their product because allegedly they have the resources to research & break big stories, are holding back a lot more of what wikileaks gave them than they’re releasing so far, stuff that would rock the state if it got out, the basis of trust, the whole civics representative democracy thing, the whole informed consent of the ruled thing, crisis of state legitimacy, even. -a.v.

  123. tigtog

    People are complaining that this thread has been blocked off. It doesn’t appear to be so from the admin backend.

  124. tigtog

    Found the culprit – it was a separate setting that auto-closes comments on all posts 60 days after publication. I’ve pushed that out to 90 days, so that gives us a while yet to play around with this thread, which is only a tad over the century, after all.

  125. akn

    GregM @ here:

    But Assange hasn’t been charged (here we go again); he’s wanted for questioning and there is no reason why such questioning cannot take place per phone or a/v link after which, if a charge was laid, then he should go to trial. Assange has indicated his willingness to be interviewed but not in Sweden because, reasonably, he fears being seized by the US. Maybe it is just that you don’t approve of Wikilx?

  126. GregM

    Anthony the point I was making was that while we can all have an opinion based on what we have read on the tubes or other media or discussions with our friends, or the cleaning lady, the only proper way to resolve such issues in any well ordered society is through a properly conducted trial, where all the relevant evidence can be laid out and fairly considered by an impartial judicial system (including in our case a jury, which Sweden does not have).

    From what I have read on the tubes, at least as far as our common law system is concerned, and as far as I am aware of the evidence, while I accept that there is a prima facie case against him for sexual intercourse without consent (rape in the old terminology) there is too much about the actions of the alleged victims immediately after the alleged assaults that would mean that it would not pass the threshold of beyond reasonable doubt, should he dispute the alleged victims’ accounts, as no doubt he would.

    But that’s me. The knowledge I have is second hand just like yours. I’d rather leave it to a developed judicial system to weigh up all the evidence and make a judgement..

  127. mindy

    GregM there is no manual for how a rape victim should act after being raped. What the alleged victims did doesn’t matter although it will be used against them. Every rape victim is different and reacts differently to their personal situation.

  128. GregM

    Mindy @127

    What the alleged victims did doesn’t matter although it will be used against them. Every rape victim is different and reacts differently to their personal situation.

    Mindy your first sentence above is patently wrong.

    If the alleged victim took every action possible to indiicate that they had had fully consensual sex with the alleged assailant and had enjoyed it and looked forward to the prospect of the same occurring again how could that not matter as a consideration by a juror as to whether sexual intercourse had been consensual?

    Equally, for this is the perverse logic of your argument, if after being raped the alleged victim strenuously claimed that she had been raped and that the alleged assailant’s sexual intercourse with her had been non-consensuual, violent and coerced then should that be ignored because, according to you, what the alleged victim did after the assault does not matter?

  129. faustusnotes

    I agree with that mindy but the problem here is that the us is out to get him, so if they were suddenly convinced to lie by the us their actions are entirely consistent with that. And I don’t think Asange concluded the us was out to get him based on some deleted tweets.

    That said, the more I see of Asange the less I believe anything he says. I think it may be his fault that snowden is trapped in a Russian airport. I also think the rendition risk is a very convenient excuse when you have sexually assaulted two women who are in a position to collude with each other. I would like to hope that my government would not agree to extraditing me for mere questioning, and that is suspicious on its face, but if I was a judge I would probably take one look at Assange and tell him to get gone.

    What I don’t understand is why Sweden can’t give him a guarantee against extradition, or just send a prosecutor to London. It’s as if they don’t care about the victims at all…

  130. mindy

    GregM I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you have misunderstood. My first sentence was that there is no manual for how you should act after being raped. The actions the alleged victims took make no difference to whether the alleged rapes occurred or not. That is all.

  131. tigtog

    Response to fn moved here from Salon since Overflow is a better fit for discussing moderation principles:

    tigtog, sorry. I don’t really know how to judge Overflow vs. Salon suitability. We used to handle all these tussles in the Salon, so I don’t know when to switch. But I think I’ll leave this headbutt here anyway, and change the topic…

    I acknowledge it’s a soft fuzzy guideline rather than a hard bright guideline, fn, but given that I’d reckon that the tipping point seems to be around about when the headbutting gets down to providing so many reference links that the comment gets automodded and then a point-by-point rebuttal is seen as the next appropriate level of response, and multiple parties are starting to get the personal imputations out? That’s an exchange which looks to me like it’s crossed well over the fuzzy guideline to the level of contention where it’s far better taken to Overflow.

    Stoush can happen to any of us, but when it does it does tend to stifle the less vociferous commentors and end up narrowing discussion down to just the stoush zone instead of taking a more comprehensive line. That‘s why stoush belongs on Overflow.

  132. faustusnotes

    thanks tigtog, I think that’s quite clear.

  133. FDB

    The actions the alleged victims took make no difference to whether the alleged rapes occurred or not.

    You’re right, in the trivial sense that one event doesn’t necessarily preclude the other (unless two events are literally mutually exclusive).

    However, without incontrovertible documentary evidence of a sexual assault, a court must consider all manner of other evidence and testimony, which must surely include the behaviour of the accused and the accuser.

    So while seeming to be pleased about having sex and wanting it to happen again might not be logically incompatible with having been raped, in court it will certainly weaken the case. And so it should, right? I mean, if either alleged victim had gone directly to the police with allegations of sexual assault, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation, would we?

  134. GregM

    FDB, the point I was making to Mindy was a general one, correctly picked up in your comment:

    However, without incontrovertible documentary evidence of a sexual assault, a court must consider all manner of other evidence and testimony, which must surely include the behaviour of the accused and the accuser.

    I was addressing the general task of a jury in any sexual assault case where there is not incontrovertible direct evidence before it. They have to go with what is put before them and decide on it as best they can.

    I wasn’t specifically considering the allegations against Assange. There is a further factor in his case, which is that the jurisdiction is Sweden, which has a civil law system and may have different laws about sexual assault, and evidentiary standards, than I am familiar with.

  135. mindy

    In a perfect system the jury would understand that it is a rape myth that victims behave in a particular way. Unfortunately it isn’t a perfect system and alleged offenders and their lawyers use it to their advantage.

  136. GregM

    Mindy under our criminal law system it is open to both prosecution and defence in their closing addresses to point out to the jury that victims of rape do not behave in a particular way and the judge provides a summing up to the jury on the evidence and how they should go about considering it, including the level of satisfaction of guilt they must have before returning a guilty verdict against the accused.

    I haven’t looked up the guidelines for judges in charging juries in these cases but I’d be pretty confident that there would be a fairly strong charge not to bring unfounded preconceptions to bear in their considerations and to judge the evidence before them, and only that, with an open mind.

    It may not be a perfect system but what reform do you propose to improve it in this case?

  137. FDB

    Oh yes Mindy, heaven forbid that people accused of serious criminal offences should argue their innocence. If that’s a sign of failure in the legal system, then let it fail on.

    Most people, including (I should hope) jurors in a rape trial, see rape as an appalling and despicable crime which causes massive trauma for the victim. In the complete absence of any signs of trauma, and in a situation where clear signs of its opposite are wiped from twitter accounts, it is entirely reasonable for this to throw doubt on the accusation.

    In fact it would be a systemic failure if this wasn’t raised in court.

    If one proceeds from the assumption of Assange’s guilt, then the fact that people have very different responses to the trauma of rape is reason enough to conclude that the triumphant tweeting was just a particularly odd case, and that its deletion was part of an ongoing and complicated post-trauma, and to go on assuming his guilt.

    If however you begin with a presumption of innocence, as is my general preference, it looks quite different. To presume the innocence of Assange in this case is straightforwardly to doubt the honesty of his accusers. Their testimony being the only evidence against him, it would be utterly absurd not to examine their behaviour before and after the alleged assaults.

    But maybe Greg’s right and that’s not the way Swedish law operates.