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335 responses to “Weekly Election 2013 Roundtable”

  1. Ambigulous

    Reports of Kevin Rudd’s press conference have him asking reporters to “chill”, but also claiming that the Coalition policy of turning boats back could lead to conflict (implication: war) with Indonesia.

    When you next see him, Minister Carr, could you please request Mr Rudd to “chill”?

  2. Ambigulous

    … and I forgot:

    “satu !!”

  3. John D

    Back in the good old days of the Raj a gunboat would have been sent to ensure that those pesky Indonesians took the boats back (Well they would have if indonesia hadn’t been a Dutch colony – but I digress.)
    Tony needs to stiffen the upper lip and accept that things have changed for the better in the last 100 years.

  4. wantok

    Ambigulous: Kevin Rudd was pointing out that the constant rhetoric from Abbott and Morrison over three years about turning back the boats despite the Indonesian Ambassador and Vice President saying this policy was not acceptable to Indonesia, was quite timely and if the coalition kept up this policy without consulting Indonesia then it would likely to lead to a diplomatic clash. This rhetoric has been cynically used as a ‘hairy chested’ vote grabber and as we all know, Abbott would do nothing of the sort when in office.

    It was quite appropriate for Rudd to poke a hole in this coalition bubble and didn’t it bring a quick response from Julie Bishop, not you will note, from Abbott or Morrison.
    The people smuggling trade obviously needs to be tackled but the empty words from the coalition have added nothing and all this rubbish about the “Howard suite of policies working” is just that, rubbish.

    ro

  5. Katz

    Let us imagine an Abbott government.

    Abbott has ordered the Australian Navy to tow boats back to Indonesian waters. An Armidale class patrol boat is doing just that, when in Indonesian territorial waters, an Indonesian patrol boat intercepts the Australian craft. The captain of the Indonesian boat announces his intention to despatch a boarding party.

    What has the Captain of the Australian boat been told to do in that circumstance? What are the Abbott government’s rules of engagement?

  6. Jumpy

    Under Howard 6 boats were towed back.
    No war eventuated.

  7. Katz

    Jumpy do you understand the difference between “turned back” and “towed back”?

    Jumpy do you acknowledge that Howard abandoned the turn back policy as early as 2003 when it became clear that the boats’ operators threatened to scuttle their boats?

  8. GregM

    Let us imagine an Abbott government.

    Abbott has ordered the Australian Navy to tow boats back to Indonesian waters. An Armidale class patrol boat is doing just that, when in Indonesian territorial waters, an Indonesian patrol boat intercepts the Australian craft. The captain of the Indonesian boat announces his intention to despatch a boarding party.

    Hardly a credible scenario. It would be sufficient for Abbott’s purpose that the Australian patrol boat the tow the boat back to Indonesian waters (20km from its coast) and leave it there. If an Indonesian patrol boat approaches then all the better. The Australian patrol boat can cut the tow ropes and head out into open waters without having entered Indonesian territorial waters, and therefore giving the Indonesians no cause to board the Australian patrol boat but free to tow the boat holding the asylum seekers into harbour.

    Far more likely is that the captain of the Australian patrol boat sends a boarding party to board the boat and its captain opens the bilge valves, scuttling the boat and turning the boarding party into a rescue party.

    What are the navy’s rules of engagement then?

  9. Jumpy

    Kats
    Are you aware of the number of people that have died at sea before and after Rudd announced, so proudly to the world, the end of the Howards policy ?

  10. Katz

    Hardly a credible scenario = a not impossible scenario.

    I guess that it would be characteristic of Abbott to turn a blind eye to unwelcome possibilities when generating rules of engagement.

  11. mindy

    Didn’t the Captains refuse to tow boats back in the end? I suspect they would do so again.

  12. Katz

    Jumpie, your failure to stay on topic is noted.

  13. philip travers

    The fatal flaw of Abbot’s argument lies elsewhere in that somehow turning back the boats will get rid of the people smugglers! If it wasn’t a dunny pit argument of the 1950’s variety then it must be the year 2013! And if you turn the boat back,maybe the people smuggler may have been on board,given now Rudd’s propensity to suggest there are economic refugees.Coming by boat for a good time.!

  14. John D

    Abbott has been getting away with serial lying for yonks. Good to see some of the lies under attack.

  15. GregM

    Didn’t the Captains refuse to tow boats back in the end? I suspect they would do so again.

    Mindy if you are referring to captains of Australian naval vessels then I am sure that they would never refuse to follow a lawful order.

    But they would want to be, and are entitled to be, quite clear on the lawfulness of their orders, especially where they pertain to conduct on the high seas where Australian domestic law and the orders of their government are only one consideration they have to take into account. They also have to take into account international maritime laws which are established by custom as jus cogens and which are therefore not easily overturned by domestic laws.

  16. Chris

    Far more likely is that the captain of the Australian patrol boat sends a boarding party to board the boat and its captain opens the bilge valves, scuttling the boat and turning the boarding party into a rescue party.

    What are the navy’s rules of engagement then?

    It was either Reith or Downer on TV the other night saying that under those circumstances of course you just rescue the asylum seekers. It won’t take those in control of the vessels very long to realise thats what they do if threatened with being turned around. For many it probably lowers the risk as at least they get rescued with an Australian Navy boat right next to them rather than having to wait for someone to find them if they start sinking for other reasons.

  17. Hoa Minh Truong

    Recycle prime minister Kevin Rudd does his political recycle after getting back in the top job:
    1-The asylum seeker: after winning the election 2007, prime minister Kevin Rudd eliminated the border protection law of John Howard, then the people traffickers have had an opportunity to do good business, that paid by Australian tax pay more than $ 5 billion. Now how could he clean up the problem that he did since 2007 from now to the election?.
    2-Climate change is the most concern of Mr. Kevin Rudd, so it just won election, prime minister Kevin Rudd and climate change minister Penny Wong came to Bali for conference but result was nothing. The Copenhagen convention was the same, therefore it spent a lot tax pay money. So carbon tax has been pregnant by Mr. Kevin Rudd, then Julia Gillard born with the assistance of midwife’s group of Greens, Tony Windsor, Robert Oakshott, Andrew Wilkie…
    There are two big issues for a recycle prime minister faces, he did the terrible mess, but wants to clean up in hurry. Now the Labor internal problem being divided by two rivalries, there is 1/3 senior ministers resigned, the wound has not healed yet. It is better way, obviously Mr. Kevin Rudd can unify his comrade and fix inside problem before raise the national issues. The Labor is as a rotten house, but owner Kevin Rudd doesn’t care, but he cares outside.
    Routine, the opposition leader challenges the prime minister to rebate, but prime minister Kevin Rudd does the other way, that shows his leadership being weakened, and he finds something to cover up.
    People vote for better policy, not for leader, despite Kevin Rudd replaced Julia Gillard, but the asylum seeker, carbon tax, deeply debt…are the real challenges of Labor in the next election being in corner. Kevin Rudd is like an old wine changes into a new bottle, the leader changes but policy doesn’t.

  18. akn

    GregM @ 8: the issue here is what constitutes a ‘lawful order’ – is it the order of executive governement or the order, unstated but known like the Bible in the Navy, of the sea?

    You’ve read Dark Victory haven’t you?

  19. akn

    On Rudd: you couldn’t buy this.

    Moreover, Carr proves his worth on refugees. It’s a damn sight better look than the East Timor solution.

  20. akn

    Chris: you’re quting Reith and Downer as sources of (gulp) legal and moral authority on refugees?

    Dude, pass that shit over. It must be good!

  21. Chris

    akn @ 18 – whatever you think of the LNP even under Abbott I don’t believe they would order the Navy to sit next to a sinking ship and let the people on it drown. And I doubt the Navy personnel would obey such a direction anyway. But it is significant that they would admit that there is such a big flaw in their policy.

  22. akn

    Chris: really? I’ll look up credible sources for you. My own family suffered three drownings at sea in war.

    There’s something to defend here which is the honour of the Oz military.

    I reckon the SIEVE X was a shameful moment in Australian military history. But I’ll get back to you on references and sources.

  23. Katz

    Chris is correct. And GregM fleshes out the legal framework.

    Those reasons are why Abbott’s intemperate, reckless and cynical threat is quite hollow.

    However, as Rudd has cogently pointed out, Abbott’s chest beating does enable an unlikely, but not impossible, serious rupture with Indonesia.

  24. Brian

    GregM:

    Far more likely is that the captain of the Australian patrol boat sends a boarding party to board the boat and its captain opens the bilge valves, scuttling the boat and turning the boarding party into a rescue party.

    What are the navy’s rules of engagement then?

    They’d bring the asylum seekers to Christmas Island, as I understand they do now with boats that fail to make the distance.

    I didn’t participate in the last asylum seeker thread, but back in 2010 I did a post Tracing the arc of Australia’s policy on asylum seekers which included this:

    Mary Crock thinks it was the sinking of SIEV X along with the aerial surveillance of Operation Relex that stopped the boats.

    Mary Crock is a professor of public law at the University of Sydney and an accredited specialist in immigration law.

    Also:

    SEIV X, probably sabotaged, staggered out into the Timor sea and sank with over 400 asylum seekers on board. 353 including 142 women and 146 children perished. Many of these were seeking to join their men, already in Australia. Beazley, rightly I think, attributed this “human tragedy” to a “failure of policy”.

    That link is to an article by David Marr, describing inter alia how Beazley made that claim and then folded under attack from Howard.

    Marr indicates that there was a resurgence of push factors when Rudd’s Government was installing a more humane approach. Rudd panicked in 2010, stopping processing for arbitrary and never explained reasons.

    I now regard the asylum seeker problem as a wicked problem, so it will be interesting to see what Rudd comes up with.

  25. Brian

    akn, I’d planned to do a post on SIEV X back in 2010 after reading Dark Victory and a pile of stuff. Don’t think I ever got it done and am a bit rusty on it now, so I’d be interested in what you come up with.

  26. Brian

    Generally speaking Rudd is going well. He has obviously had time for reflection. At one stage during his first gig he’d told David Feeney to get f*cked and pissed Don Farrell off. Perhaps he’s realised that you get more out of people if you treat them civilly, but he now understands that they all have a vote in caucus and that many of them voted for him for pragmatic reasons.

    It remains to be seen how he goes under pressure, but it seems unlikely that Abbott and co will faze him.

  27. GregM

    SEIV X, probably sabotaged, staggered out into the Timor sea and sank with over 400 asylum seekers on board. 353 including 142 women and 146 children perished. Many of these were seeking to join their men, already in Australia.

    SIEV X was nowhere near the Timor Sea when it sank.

    It sank about 90 kms off the coast of west Java not far from the port in the Sunda Strait from which it had departed. It was over 2000 kilometres from the Timor Sea which is the body of water between Timor and northern Australia.

    In terms of geographical accuracy you may as well say it staggered out into the Coral Sea.

  28. Peter Murphy

    Michaelia Cash, Liberal senator for WA, gets a little over-theatrical over Gillard’s exodus.

    I find myself watching it over and over again. It cheers me up.

  29. Katz

    Clearly Michaelia Cash is another tragic case of Catallaxy-induced Tourette’s Syndrome.

    A responsible adult should police her internet usage.

  30. Paul Norton

    Michaela Cash has form.

  31. Paul Norton

    And the photo in this link says it all.

  32. pablo

    [email protected] says it is a ‘wicked problem’. I’m inclined to see it also as unsolvable at least in the sense of a single big solution. Transparency is a real problem in commenting. For example I am wondering what we have by way of presence on the ground in Indonesia directly countering the people smugglers – just one but a major part of the problem. I thought the AFP had people in this role. How good is our seaport intelligence, boat movements?
    Also how good is Indonesian cooperation? If it is accepted there is corruption then Australia should be using that unacceptability as justification to return boats. A bit of brinkmanship ought to be considered as a graduated response to bad behaviour.

  33. Brian

    pablo, my understanding of a ‘wicked problem’ is one that has no solution or if the possible solutions cause other problems.

  34. Paul Norton

    Brian, as well as having the characteristics you mention, a “wicked problem” is one on which different stakeholders can’t agree on the nature of the problem due to social and technical complexity. Here’s some start of the art thinking on “wicked problems”.

  35. Brian

    Re Senator Michaelia Cash, I heard what I thought was her unseemly rant on radio. It went on for three and a half minutes and was her speech on the 457 amendmnets. Incredibly, I think, she was introduced as Deputy Manager of Opposition Business in the Senate. It appears she is also:

    Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for the Status of Women
    Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Immigration

    The LNP are either desperately short of talent or they have very strange criteria for recognising such.

    She did have to withdraw calling certain people grubs.

  36. Brian

    Thanks, Paul. Many people calling asylum seekers “illegals” is part of the problem.

    GregM @ 21, thanks for the geography. The important thing is that it staggered into the Operation Relex zone, in the NW sector, from memory.

  37. alfred venison

    so Brian do you think will rudd favor the authoritative, the collaborative, or the competitive solution strategy for his asylum seeker wicked problem?

    competitive seems apt for election time, collaborative naturally with indonesia, not tony abbott, and authoritative i think has been tied with the expert group. -a.v.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_problem

  38. Chris

    Clearly Michaelia Cash is another tragic case of Catallaxy-induced Tourette’s Syndrome.

    Channelling Anne Summers apparently!

  39. jules

    Miranda Cash is a Horde fan.

    Horde – Drink from the Chalice of Blood.

  40. Liz

    Tim Dunlop’s article, which was linked to in another thread is an excellent summation. Labor has replaced Policy Julia with Smiley Kevin. In other words, they’ve replaced a PM who is very good at governing, with a PM who is very good at electioneering.

    This might look like a clever thing to do and if Rudd stops Labor from being slaughtered and prevents Abbott holding the BOP in the Senate, it will be an excellent thing. But, they’ve only solved a short term problem. Their long term problem is where to find a leader who’s good at both governing and electioneering. One they can live with. It’s clear the majority in Caucus loathe Rudd. I’m not much of a believer in a leopard changing spots. I think that if Rudd doesn’t win the next election, they’ll chuck him again pretty quickly. Remember, the only reason he’s there is to win, or at least minimise the damage. No-one’s suggested that they chucked Gillard out for policy reasons. It’s solely to get the best possible election result.

    So, I think in a few months time Rudd will have served his purpose and Labor will be going through the leadershit blues again. Shorten and a few others will be circling. None of this solves Labor’s long term structural problems.

  41. Brian

    The full video is here, part of Senator Cash’s collection.

  42. Brian

    av @ 37, a resolution of sorts requires either the cooperation of the LNP or the Greens. The problem is that the LNP won’t co-operate, because they don’t want their opponents to solve the problem. Collaboration is the only way open.

    It will have to involve Indonesia, Malaysia and other regional players in the ‘Bali process”.

    Ironically this is the way the LNP have been talking in their saner moments. They’ve also been emphasising that reducing the flow of boats will take time. The hairy chested rhetoric is just for electoral gain.

  43. Brian

    On electoral timing, the latest seems to be August 24 or 31. The G20 is a Leaders’ Summit, to be held in St. Petersburg on September 5-6, 2013. It seems probable that both Rudd and Abbott will attend.

    Rudd can’t go prior to that because otherwise the local government referendum will have to be held separately.

    My wife tells me the Greens only offered him support on condition he didn’t recall parliament. Something she heard on the radio.

    When I heard Rudd first talk about this I’m sure he said the date wouldn’t be far away from what people were expecting.

  44. Peter Murphy

    Here’s that SMS Roy Morgan poll with the state by state breakdowns. It looks like Rudd may have saved the Senate already. WA may go 4 Lib or 3 Lib + 1 WA Nat, but all other states have the conservatives at a maximum of 3 per state (or possibly 2 for Tasmania).

    The Greens aren’t doing that well, however, with 5.5% in Queensland.

  45. Luxxe

    Paul Norton @ 30 she does have form, and is a joke, but the points she raised in that article appear to have at least some basis. A former AMA expert apparently briefed a govt committee on his findings that there is a high rate of STDs among unaccompanied minors in detention.

  46. Brian

    Peter Murphy, I understand senate voting doesn’t quite follow HoR. Overall though, there is cause for cautious optimism.

  47. Ootz

    Brian @42 “The hairy chested rhetoric is just for electoral gain.”

    For sure the LNP do have “their saner moments”. However, they are operating on a very slippery slope with their hairy chestedness. Par example, what has happened to the GOP in the US, being taken over by the tea-bagging – religious nuts, sociopathic haters, freedom without responsibilitarians and corporate greed. Now that is one ugly chest, with rampant unkept growth , full of vermin and pubic in appearance. Bike rider Tony maybe able to shave his legs for slickness, not so sure how well he’d bear up to waxing his pectus.

  48. Liz

    I see we have Rudd family photos all over News Ltd newspapers. So, we’re back to normal in a place where women are only there as support for men. I also note a quote from Rudd in which he says he never really gave up his dream to be PM again. So, he was just telling lies, when he said he would never challenge again.

    Why isn’t Rudd being called out for being a liar? Imagine if Gillard had made such an admission? But, no-one really cares, do they? *Sigh*.

  49. paul walter

    Liz, what is it you don’t you get about it being about not handing over the nation on a platter to the neo/neolib elitist right, via control of both houses, along with the states already under conservative Murdochist rule?
    No one denies that the Gillard ministry did as well as it could, but it faced a perfect confected media storm and the recall of Rudd was meant as a circuit-breaker to snap the public out of its brainwashed trance and prevent the loss not only of a chance for future change for future generations, but the unencumbered and perhaps permanent wind back of much good done already.

  50. Katz

    His dreaming was quite acceptable. His relentless white anting wasn’t.

  51. Liz

    True Katz. But, he did say there was no circumstance in which he would challenge again. That was a lie. But, apparently when Rudd tells lies, that’s completely acceptable.

  52. Paul Norton

    Peter Murphy, I understand senate voting doesn’t quite follow HoR. Overall though, there is cause for cautious optimism.

    As I mentioned on an earlier open election thread, in both 2007 and 2010 the ALP Senate vote was about 3% down on their HoR vote, the Coalition about 2% down, and the Greens about 1% up.

  53. Katz

    It could be argued that Rudd didn’t challenge.

    Gillard called the spill rather than Rudd calling for a spill.

    Once a spill is called the post is vacant, there are no incumbents or challengers, merely aspirants.

  54. Ootz

    Katz, have you ever read Eugène Marais’ “Soul of the White Ant”. These are some extremely complex and formidable creatures. You can’t really kill them outright, impossible. They are natures undertakers and composters, highly mobile and fertile. Invariable one relies on prevention by regular ‘treatment’ or building in steel.

    BTW just rereading “The Second Rudd Government?” by Robert Manne, published in The Monthly about one and a half year ago.

    On present indications, under Gillard or any of her likely successors, Labor will be destroyed at the next election. Under Rudd – on the basis of a social democratic, social justice and environmental agenda, capable of appealing to both the broad suburban middle and working classes and the left-leaning inner city professional elites – there is at least an outside chance of forestalling the arrival of a regime of unthinking and unscrupulous populist conservatism under the Prime Ministership of Tony Abbott. It is this outside chance that should be grasped, even if that means the offer of a junior portfolio to Julia Gillard and the no doubt temporary exile of Bill Shorten to the government’s back benches.

  55. Liz

    Are you a lawyer, Katz?

  56. Katz

    You say that like it is a bad thing, Liz.

  57. Liz

    Well, he got the last bit wrong, Ootz. Shorto will be back with bells on post election. Personally, I’d like to see Combet as leader.

  58. Liz

    Not at all, Katz. Some of my best friends are lawyers.

  59. Peter Murphy

    Thank you, Paul. It makes it likelier that Katter gets a senate spot (if he markets his party better).

    I’ve popped the state by state breakdowns into Antony Green’s calculator.

  60. David

    Memo to Anne Summers: Isn’t an important feminist principle that girls and women are not a “monolith” and should act according to their individual conscience?

    Yet, you think the female ministers should have acted, like, well, a monolith, and resigned out of some bizarre notion of “sisterly solidarity”.

    No one who isn’t a Baby Boomer should care one jot what Summers has to say.

  61. Chris

    No-one’s suggested that they chucked Gillard out for policy reasons. It’s solely to get the best possible election result.

    If the polls had just show that the ALP were just going to lose by a bit, even a large bit, Gillard’s position would have been stable. Its not so much about getting the best possible election result, but attempting to avoid a total disaster where they lose half their lower house seats, Abbott gets control of the Senate and is in for a comfy 2 if not 3 terms. If Rudd wasn’t around, someone else would have been found to replace Gillard. I’ve no doubt that Rudd will get replaced if, as is likely, they lose the next election. As would Gillard have been replaced after the election if they lost.

    In the end you do need a leader who can both govern and electioneer. Its too bad that the ALP could not find a way to use both their strengths. But it would have been difficult to engineer a situation where Rudd was responsible for selling their policies to the public and Gillard was managing the implementation. And its likely neither would have been happy about that sort of arrangement.

  62. Peter Murphy

    Liz: if Rudd loses or carks it or resigns due to ill health, wouldn’t it be better to choose a replacement that has his ability to “cut through”? I’ve got mixed feelings about Shorten in that department.

  63. verity

    When Rudd was the leader and Gillard was deputy, the ALP WAS using both their strengths. Its such a dysfunctional outfit. Cut off its nose to spite its face.

  64. mindy

    Well it won’t be Combet, he has announced he is going.

  65. Paul Norton

    Well it won’t be Combet, he has announced he is going.

    Which is a pity. Combet is someone of real ability, decency and strong convictions.

  66. mindy

    I thought he would be PM one day, but I guess he didn’t feel the same.

  67. Liz

    Chris @ 61. I agree with that. But, it shows the structural problems Labor has. I just don’t know how they’re going to solve them, either.

    Now, we’ve just heard that Combet won’t be re-standing. Labor is losing a lot of people. Some of them won’t be missed. But, look who’s going; Gillard, Combet, Roxon, Smith, Garrett, Emerson.

    Thank god Plibersek and Wong are staying.

    There’s something basically wrong with Labor to be losing all those people. It’s not just Rudd. But, really if the Parliamentary Labor Party was an employer, would you want to work for them?

  68. Liz

    Peter Murphy, I think Shorten has the ability to sound like a human being. I remember how well he handled the Beaconsfield mine disaster.

  69. Luxxe

    Just to perhaps illustrate how complex this can be to a Labor supporter: I support, and supported Rudd for the spill. Yet, I have personally witnessed his hideous behaviour, directed at an international colleague (whom he dead-handed and dead-eyed for no reason whatsoever when there were no cameras around; minutes later in front of the camera he made a show of niceness). He is cold and narcissistic, a white-anter, and he absolutely relishes the discomfort his behaviour brings. I actually agree with his colleagues’ assessment that he is a cruel psychopath. It kills me that, with all his fake charm, he is back. “Campaign Rudd” is way more fake than supposedly “non-real Julia” every was. However, the alternative was Abbott …

  70. Robbo

    @68 Funny, I always sensed that Shorten milked every situation for what it was worth for his own gain. A hollow man and centre-right ALP to boot.

    Time to get over the side-show, Liz. You either want to punish individuals forever, or you accept, like Gillard, that the main game, the urgent game, is to defeat the LNP in the federal election.

  71. Jacques de Molay

    We all know Shorten is a factional powerbroker but seriously how rank was it for that guy to hold a press conference on the night to announce he was switching from Gillard to Rudd?

    Just do it in the party room don’t hold a bloody press conference all drawn out for effect.

  72. Brian

    I suspect Shorten may have more integrity than he’s been given credit for, but honestly I don’t know. Reading Tingle in the Fin Review it seems the last round of destabilisation may have started when Shorten started to ask a few questions of mates when single seat polling showed significant swings in Victoria. The Ruddsters were able to pull back and let it happen.

    The finger is pointing at Chris Bowen (that’s from me, not the Fin Review) as the nerve centre of the Ruddsters by who was seen going into his office. One wonders whether he was doing it while a minister. Some investigative journalism is required.

    Tingle is still for an October election with a recall of parliament.

  73. Brian

    Latham says that his book identified 18 factional power brokers, average size of faction 5. Now he reckons there are 24, average size 4 if there are no non-aligned.

  74. Chris

    There’s something basically wrong with Labor to be losing all those people. It’s not just Rudd. But, really if the Parliamentary Labor Party was an employer, would you want to work for them?

    I don’t think the retirements are related to Rudd at all. We’re just seeing all the resignations we would have seen after the next election when the ALP lost anyway. It’s not that surprising that having been ministers in government that many would not want to endure at least 3, maybe 6 years in opposition. Much more money to be made in the private sector along with privacy and time for friends and family.

    If the parliament was a “real” employer I’d think they’d be in big legal trouble. There’s no way that the way politicians treat each other both in and out of parliament would be tolerated.

  75. Peter Murphy

    I suspect Shorten may have more integrity than he’s been given credit for, but honestly I don’t know. Reading Tingle in the Fin Review it seems the last round of destabilisation may have started when Shorten started to ask a few questions of mates when single seat polling showed significant swings in Victoria. The Ruddsters were able to pull back and let it happen.

    Brian: that’s roughly the story I read in Crikey.

  76. Liz

    Robbi & 70. Don’t tell a woman to get over misogyny. Interesting that you see it as a sideshow.

    Besides, I’m also not looking at a sideshow. I’m looking at a basic structural problem for Labor. One of the reasons Rudd plays so well is that he’s not ‘of’ the ALP. He gets to play a very Presidential game. That’s all very well, but how is he going to reform Labor? What happens next when Labor gets defeated, which is what I think will happen?

    [email protected] When I wrote about a similar experience, I was told I was either lieing, or being lied to. This is how Rudd operates. Some people think that doesn’t matter, but I do.

  77. Liz

    Chris, a couple have made it very clear that it’s about Rudd; Garrett and Emerson for instance. Combet has said in his statement that Rudd didn’t cause it, but the spill was a ‘catalyst’.

  78. Liz

    Robbie @70. I’ve said it before. But, I know quite a few people who work in the disability area and they all think Shorten was a great Minister who really understood the issues and worked his arse off to change things. He’s one of the main reasons the NDIS has happened.

  79. Chris

    Chris, a couple have made it very clear that it’s about Rudd; Garrett and Emerson for instance.

    Resigning from cabinet, yes. But leaving politics? That would be appear to be a huge overreaction given its likely that Rudd won’t be leader for that long if, as is still expected, the ALP lose government. To their credit they are avoiding the cost of a number of bi-elections, common after a government loses power.

  80. Robbo

    [modded ~ no personal abuse or comments on what you think other commenters views are please ~Mod] And the fact is that disabled people have been massively penalised under Gillard who has forced so many off the disability pension back onto the dole – or worse.

  81. paul walter

    The self indulgent petulance of Smith and Combet in particular, when the Australian public is about to be handed over to the hard right with not necessarily a way back, nauseates me.
    By contrast, Labor’s female ministers have sublimated probable deep underlying disappointment and copped abuse, for looking to the future and respecting the needs of their electorates.

  82. Liz

    Oh dear [email protected], that’s very funny.

  83. Robbo

    [email protected] It’s not a question of

    getting over

    misogyny. Category error. It’s not a virus.

    No, what I meant is accepting the first things first principle. Gillard was subjected to nightmarish misogyny. No question. But now, as she herself has signalled, it is necessary to focus on what is most important: defeating the LNP in the upcoming election and employing all the usual means for doing so.

  84. Liz

    Robbo, for a start you’re the one who told me to get over it. So, if it’s a category error, then it’s your category error.

    Secondly, fighting misogyny is a first principle. Why is it that some left- wing men so often tell women not to worry about misogyny first, there are more important things?

  85. Robbo

    Liz, fighting misogyny is a first principle, but not within a broader reality.

    Julia Gillard was no flag bearer for feminism except by virtue of being Australia’s first female PM. Well woopy doo. Turns out she was in fact anti-humanist (asylum seekers), anti-feminist (single parents), anti-environment, anti-gay, anti-Aboriginal, anti-working class (policies or their absence too numerous to mention).

  86. Liz

    Yes, Robbo she was horrible. I know; a witch, a bitch, chuck her out in a chaff bag. But, I think this discussion might be derailing this thread. [correct, it ends now please ~ Mod]

  87. Robbo

    You’re verballing, Liz. Poor form.

  88. mindy

    Colour me shocked, someone has said it

    While they will not admit it publicly, fear has risen on the Coalition side since the dramatic knifing of Julia Gillard.

    emphasis mine

  89. Peter Murphy
  90. Ootz

    Peter Murphy, hat is genuinely shocking. Just as Allan Jones’ chafbag comment, it is blatant and uncivilised bullying.

    It does look like the LNP decided they are taking the ‘hairy chested’ GOP route to the government benches. The mad are well on the way to take over the asylum.

  91. Peter Murphy

    I’m glad I’m not alone in thinking “That’s just not on, is it?” Hopefully someone in the ALP can make use of that. It’s a bit “Ewww”.

  92. Chris

    Mindy @ 88 – they’ve also been using the word coup too even in interviews with ALP politicians.

    Ootz @ 90 – well it’s interesting with the change in PM to see how the attacks continue. Gives a reference to see how much Gillard endured was because she is a woman vs how politics is getting so abusive for everyone. After Alan jones’ comment I don’t think a senior LNP minister would have dared to say the same thing, even in a joke, about Gillard

  93. alfred venison

    show’s he’s worried about rudd. would he wish to have drowned someone non-threatening to him? is this sign of a mind messed with? -a.v.

  94. Russell

    The ALP can’t use it for the obvious reason that half the ALP also regret that Hockey didn’t do him in.

  95. mindy

    Nice one Russell.

    @Chris – yes the sheer audacity of the LNP attacking Rudd over what happened to Gillard was breathtaking, as if they had nothing to do with it. It seems that the attacks won’t stop they will just take on a different flavour.

  96. Russell

    A few commenters have justified the return of Rudd with a “the end justifies the means” argument: that it’s worth it to hold on to some more seats, to prevent an LNP government etc.

    I’m not so sure. When you violate your principles of loyalty, honesty, integrity …. that’s what you can become, that will inform what you do in the future, even if you are in power. You know the ALP already has this reputation – famously in NSW and we’re seeing it federally. If nothing else it means your reputation as an organisation will result in an ever shrinking membership more easily taken over by self-interested cliques.

  97. zorronsky

    “When you violate your principles of loyalty, honesty, integrity …. that’s what you can become”
    No problems there for the Coalition then. Those principals aren’t in their DNA.

  98. Ootz

    “When you violate your principles of loyalty, honesty, integrity …. that’s what you can become, that will inform what you do in the future, even if you are in power.”

    Russel, wasn’t politics ever thus. But the ‘drowning regrets’ are also indicative of what that party’s future holds- soon the blue ties will be replaced with brown shirts. This is taking Australian politics to a new level, or can anyone remember a similar expression by a senior federal shadow or minister ?

  99. Jumpy

    Russell @96
    Yes, also
    It’s the ” form over function” mentality that has always dominated the ALP psyche.
    Function over form is a conservative trait.

  100. Chris

    I’m not so sure. When you violate your principles of loyalty, honesty, integrity …. that’s what you can become, that will inform what you do in the future, even if you are in power.

    Well that horse bolted a long time ago. If loyalty was the overriding principle then they would have let Rudd go to the election in 2010 as PM because there was a very strong convention that you don’t challenge first term PMs. Or if ministers then were that upset with his conduct they would have resigned in protest. But they were at that stage getting concerned about the polls. And I’d guess the vast majority of political leaders have reached their positions through some level of subterfuge and disloyalty.

    The ALP can’t use it for the obvious reason that half the ALP also regret that Hockey didn’t do him in.

    You won’t reach very far as a politician if you can’t do hypocrisy 🙂

    So just as a reality check as to how things are in the US relative to Australia, a quote from an SMH article:

    Only in the South, he says, could a man like Jake Knotts, a South Carolinian state senator, even think of saying in a public forum, “We already got one raghead in the White House, we don’t need a raghead in the governor’s mansion.”

    http://www.smh.com.au/world/history-repeats-gettysburg-150-years-on-20130629-2p3td.html

  101. zorronsky

    Leopards don’t change their spots cry the LNP and they’re on to something there.
    http://www.smh.com.au/national/dead-diggers-father-sickened-by-abbott-gaffe-20110208-1alq1.html

  102. Liz

    Remember when Hockey was supposed to be one of the nice guys?

  103. mindy

    He seems to have turned nasty since his stint on Sunrise.

  104. Peter Murphy

    Liz: I always thought his “nice guy” demeanor was more like a shady used car salesman. But I never thought he come out with something that rank. A quiet comment to a mate could be taken as a joke, but doing it in front of a rally is something else again.

    To other matters. Latest Galaxy Poll: Preferred PM: Rudd 51 (+18 compared to Gillard), Abbott 34 (-3); 2 Party Preferred: ALP 49 (+4) L/NP 51 (-4).

  105. Russell

    “If loyalty was the overriding principle then they would have let Rudd go to the election in 2010 as PM”

    Apart from the fact that he was unable to do the job due to his character flaws, he was not loyal to them. There was no collegial spirit with Rudd. For all Gillard’s faults she did seem to run a fairly harmonious team.

    Unfortunately for her (and us), it wasn’t a very talented team. Anyone remember Hawke’s cabinet? Lots of people there who could carry their own ministry and sell their message and achievements to the public. Gillard (and now Rudd) only had/have what the ALP now throws up from which to choose.

  106. Jumpy

    Hockey was joking, you know, light hearted humour.
    It happens all the time.
    Even Julia and Tony engaged in it.
    It’s ridiculous to be so precious.
    Even Rudd has a funny bone.
    Australia started degenerating into the morose since KBW was last nominated for an ARIA in 02.
    A sad period in our history, to be sure, to be sure.

  107. Sam Bauers

    Anyone else thinking that Carr will moving to the lower house via his old stomping ground, now vacant Kingsford-Smith? Seems that could boost Labor in NSW.

  108. Chris

    Unfortunately for her (and us), it wasn’t a very talented team. Anyone remember Hawke’s cabinet? Lots of people there who could carry their own ministry and sell their message and achievements to the public. Gillard (and now Rudd) only had/have what the ALP now throws up from which to choose.

    I think the best thing of all the fallout post spill is Conroy resigining from cabinet. Its just a pity that he hasn’t announced his retirement from politics. Apart from his obsession with compulsory internet filtering, he is the one responsible for the government failing to sell the benefits of the NBN. And the big red button at NBN events. WTF!?!

  109. Russell

    “It’s the ” form over function” mentality that has always dominated the ALP psyche. Function over form is a conservative trait.”

    Ah Jumpy, how lucky you are to be so young. It wasn’t always thus. Our Brian Burke, who had been a journalist, brought a wonderful understanding of how to use the media, how to create an image, into Australian politics.

    The federal ALP saw Brian’s success and were converted. (Blair saw their success and became even better at the game). “Spin” has so dominated the ALP now that most of its MPs couldn’t lie straight in bed.

    Tim asked me a while ago why I would prefer the Barnett government to the Gallop government, and I could have answered about the Gallop government’s awful record in mental health or indigenous affairs etc, but the more important reason is that I, after a lifetime of giving the ALP my vote, now see them as irremediably corrupt as far as personal integrity goes, and that flows into they way they govern. They’re ‘spinning’ so fast and constantly that they’ve lost touch with any basic honesty they ever had.

    As we saw with the Gillard government, they contradict basic decent ALP values – and then try to spin some line to convince themselves, and us, that they still have some sort of moral coherence. Well, we’re not convinced.

  110. Russell

    Chris – Conroy was hopeless, mostly for the NBN, but also for the Post Office, which has hasn’t met users’ needs. But I wouldn’t describe Jenny Macklin as an asset, or Wayne Swan, or Peter Garrett, or Joe Ludwig, or ….. almost all of them, including the wooden Penny Wong!

    Hawke had Keating as treasurer, there was John Button, Susan Ryan, Gareth Evans, Bill Hayden, Tom Uren, Neal Blewett, Barry Jones, Robert Ray, Brian Howe, Peter Cook ….. all of those people could explain what the government was doing in a way that made people listen.

    Compare them with …. Nicola Roxon on health care reform! Did anyone ever understand a word she said? Or want to?

  111. Terry

    A key part of the Rudd return was a rapproachment on the NSW Labor right. Tony Burke, Chris Bowen and Jason Clare were all facing the possible loss of their seats, and in a move in which Bob Carr undoubtedly played a role, decided that Rudd v Gillard sectarianism was not a game that was worth the candle.

    Note that the only resignations from NSW are Peter Garrett (factionally unaligned) and Greg Combet (notionally left, but not Albo-Cameron left).

    Even David Bradbury seems to have gone over to Rudd in the end, despite being promoted well above his abilities under Gillard and Swan.

    Worth noting how important various Asian votes are in all of those Sydney electorates. Those constituencies like Rudd, and never accepted Gillard.

  112. Lefty E

    There’s the narrowing.

    The pressure is now right on the LNP. Nothing in their current posture suggests an ability to respond adequately.

    Shorten just got with the strength, not the other way round.

  113. Paul Norton

    Worth noting how important various Asian votes are in all of those Sydney electorates. Those constituencies like Rudd, and never accepted Gillard.

    I think we’ve already touched on how several NSW Right MPs in western Sydney supported Carr against Gillard over the issue of Palestine’s observer status at the UN because of the sensitivities of Arab and Muslim voters in their electorates, and how this marks a break from the past when different sub-factions of Labor tended towards pro-Israel or pro-Palestine partisanship out of conviction (Bob Hawke would have known that his devotion to Israel wouldn’t have endeared him to many of his constituents in Wills).

  114. Paul Norton

    Here are the tables from today’s Galaxy poll.

  115. Lefty E

    I see the LNP decided to bring in their last popular leader as well – Howard!

  116. hammy

    Galaxy is just the start. I think Newspoll will show a decisive 2PP lead to the ALP. We’ve been saved from Abbott at the death.

  117. Katz

    Joe Hockey pretends to apologise to Gillard for failing to drown Rudd on Kokoda.

    In fact he now fears, that like the Japanese on Kokoda, the Abbott-led Libs will never subject Australia to their rule.

    The defeated Japanese resorted to cannibalism. Time to tie on the bib, Joe.

  118. Katz

    Howard’s rant on Rudd’s comments re Indo tensions…

    Is Ratty too senile to remember observing that al Qaeda was cheering on Barak Obama’s success?

  119. Peter Murphy

    Graphs, graphs, graphs…

  120. Chris

    The pressure is now right on the LNP. Nothing in their current posture suggests an ability to respond adequately.

    The bounce is good, and interestingly although the polls are fairly mixed about whether people think changing leaders was a good idea, its pretty clear that dislike of Gillard was pulling down the ALP primary vote. However, it is very much the honeymoon period – and I don’t think people should get too excited about the results. Have another look in a month or so.

    Some of them seem to show a slight shift from the Greens back to the ALP as well which is pretty interesting as I expected people annoyed with what happened to Gillard to move to the Greens.

  121. Liz

    [email protected] Someone has posted a SMH article from 27 June 2010, showing Gillard leading Abbott 55-45. I don’t think anyone should be counting chickens yet. But, Rudd will have the advantage of not having a bitter ex-leader leaking against him. That’s worth a couple of percentage points.

  122. Chris

    Liz @ 121 – I certainly agree about not counting chickens yet. Its way too early to be confident but it would have been a disaster if there was no bounce at all. And as much as the polls are looking better, they’re still indicating a win to the Coalition. It remains to be seen if there will be any anti-Rudd leaks during the next few months and there have been a few pretty strong anti Rudd articles appearing in the press by those who would normally support the ALP. One difference between the two leadership changes is this time the public expected something to happen, whereas the first time both the public and media were in shock for a while. So perhaps the backlash at changing PMs will be less this time.

  123. Jumpy

    Heh heh, what a difference a week makes in peoples opinion of polls and their relevance, accuracy and potential effect.
    On both sides of the political fence the rhetoric has done a 180.
    When’s the next one?

  124. Jumpy

    I should have said ” collective rhetoric “, some individuals have not changed and good on them.

  125. Mindy

    Rudd needs to actually do something soon. Call for a conscience vote on same sex marriage, reverse the changes to single parent pensions, get more states signed up to Gonski. He is making all the right noises but needs to get one of these under his belt and soon before people start to remember the dithering from last time. If he holds out going to an election he has to come up with something. People are used to a quiet flow of stuff getting done under Gillard. He needs to prove that he has the goods to keep delivering.

    I don’t think that he is going to deliver on asylum seekers in the way that many want him to though.

  126. Katz

    Rudd needs to establish a Ministry of Anal Micromanagement Prevention. The Minister’s portfolio should consist of smacking Rudd on the side of the head whenever he even contemplates Ruddish conduct.

  127. Russell

    Gonski should be the easiest, and a nice reverse of what Gillard did to him “I can get this done where she couldn’t”. (And if she had, 3 months ago, would she still be PM?)

    But in the press conference Rudd went on about the ‘conditions’. Mistake. As far as people understand Gonski it’s “more money to poor schools”. I think everyone agrees on the funding formula, so that’s all Rudd should go for – all states signed up. Done.

    A couple of weeks ago, daft Carmen Lawrence said that Barnett should sign up to the rotten conditions in order to get the money, and negotiate about the conditions later. Oh sure. Who was the most desperate in the bargaining: Barnett or Gillard? Pity she didn’t advise Gillard “sign up for the funding formula and negotiate the conditions later”.

  128. Russell

    What new policies should Rudd take to the election?

    They can’t say too much about the carbon price, Gonski, NDIS., that’s the past now. Industrial relations may need some reform, but best not to mention that. Tax definitely does, but best to do that just after you’ve won an election.

    One of Rudd’s populist slogans is about wanting to be PM of a country that makes stuff, so that’s one area to develop. Maybe boosting Australia’s trade offices overseas? PM’s awards (say $1 million) for successful small companies that are transitioning to be successful exporters?

  129. Liz

    Jumpy, FWIW, I wasn’t one of those people who declared the polls must be wrong, because I don’t like them. When you have a long series of polls all saying the same thing, it has meaning.

    Then, we even had that arseclown Bob Ellis saying they must be all wrong because he’d chatted to a few people down the shopping centre. Or something.

  130. Jumpy

    Rudd new cabinet.

    The announcement of Victorian Senator Jacinta Collins, as well as MPs Julie Collins and Catherine King to the Cabinet, will increase the number of women in the ministry from 9 to 11.

    No mention of the new males promoted, not surprised.
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-30/labor-reveals-three-new-women-in-frontbench-line-up/4790212

  131. Jumpy

    Liz

    Jumpy, FWIW, I wasn’t one of those people who declared the polls must be wrong, because I don’t like them.

    No need to defend yourself to me Liz. I wasn’t attacking anyone personally just observing and sharing my perception of ” the vibe “.

    Then, we even had that arseclown Bob Ellis saying they must be all wrong because he’d chatted to a few people down the shopping centre. Or something.

    Yes, well, I mostly ignore the work of Bob Carrs speech writer.

  132. Jacques de Molay

    Making a virtue of the necessity of filling such enormous gaps, Rudd has announced that three women will join his cabinet, taking female representation to its highest level ever.

    They are the Victorian senator Jacinta Collins – previously a parliamentary secretary, who will take the portfolio of mental health – Victorian Catherine King and Tasmanian Julie Collins, who were formerly in the outer ministry. King takes the portfolio of regional Australia and Collins homelessness and the status of women. West Australian Melissa Parke joins the outer ministry with the portfolio if international development (aid).

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/30/kevin-rudd-threadbare-options-cabinet

  133. Liz

    Jumpy, I’d mainly like to ignore Bob Carr.

  134. Jumpy

    Liz, lol

    Jumpy, I’d mainly like to ignore Bob Carr.

    As we should of a man that receive not even one vote in the last election yet holds (what I consider ) the position of 3IC of the country.

  135. Ambigulous

    I was amused recently to read Bob Ellis fulminating against someone by calling them a ….

    …. teetotaller !!!

  136. akn

    Oh Lord, I’m a changed man! I see the light after watching SBS ‘The Observer Effect’ interview with Mr Rabbit’s sister. Oh holy, holy, Tony is a real man, a decent soul, the very pillar of family strenght and support during such a time of slash and burn interpersonal conflict as to back his Lesbian Sister, who had three children to their Non-Lesbian Father, prior to deciding that she wanted to bat for ‘the other team’. Heavens. what a surprise!

    And Mr Rabbitt’s sister was subject to such pungent, searing questioning on the matter of How to Be A Liberal Lesbian. Soooo convincing; such intellectual depth, such command of the subject, she even agreed that Howard Sattler questioning ex-PM Gillard’s partner’s sexuality by Howard Sattler was ‘beyond the pale’. Such Solidarity with decent human values.

    Bah.

  137. alfred venison

    wow. what you do in the interest of (political) science. how many sherries to get over that one? -a.v.

  138. Nickws

    Annabelle Crabb, M. Bahnisch’s pal (he promoted her work on the old LP) & the woman who coined the term ‘Ruddbot’, writes an article explaining how Kev is no more of a cad than any of his predecessors.

    Oh, and though she has a para on Julia Gillard’s own cadishness, she doesn’t even mention Gillard by name.

    Well, this is one way forward.

  139. Russell

    That Crabb article is not original, or informative, or well written …. it’s just typical of the waste of space that is Australian journalism.

  140. Mindy

    Crean retiring at the next election, another one down.

  141. Brian
  142. pablo

    Remember Rudd believes in a “big Australia”.
    He could go one better than the Libs with an election looming with an Exclusive Economic Zone somewhere in undeveloped northern Australia “making things” and perhaps also growing stuff. Economic migrants? Somehow I don’t think we’ll be hearing much about that one.

  143. Doug

    Melissa Parke is a class act

  144. Paul Norton

    Gary Gray gets Resources and Energy. Poop!

  145. Luxxe

    Really sorry about Crean.

  146. Katz

    This Cabinet is in caretaker mode.

    They simply need to avoid pissing on the Axminster between now and the election.

  147. drsusancalvin

    @146 They simply need to avoid pissing on the Axminster between now and the election.
    Unlike T. Abbott who has been “fouling” the Westminster.

  148. alfred venison

    you’ve been misinformed.
    dub is a sub genre of reggae which has influenced many other genres, including ambient.
    desktop computers are optional.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dub_(music)

  149. Brian

    Kim Carr has said he’d like to restore university funding. But it’s ‘aspirational’ because it’s worth a bit.

  150. Brian

    I’ve put up a new post about what Rudd should do about climate change policy.

  151. Helen

    Gary Gray gets Resources and Energy. Poop!

    Matt Chambers in the Opposition Organ-
    “Gray’s role is effectively going to be one of harm minimisation,” one industry source said.

    He means harm maximisation, surely. The harm minimisation will be in opposing Gray and his fossil fuel friends.

  152. Jumpy

    Gary Grey is still Small Business Minister, good.
    Good only because we’ve had 6 of em in 5 years and his retention can only be described a display of what this mob call ” ALP stability “, temporary stability that is.

  153. Russell

    I’m saving the prospect of Gary Gray losing his seat as a source of at least some satisfaction if the ALP loses and the LNP forms the next government.

    You can gauge how poorly this ministry has been put together by the dropping of Andrew Leigh. Why would you drop one of the most talented and best presenters in your (fairly mediocre) team?

  154. Liz

    Is it because Andrew Leigh was too close to Gillard? There’s a long list of MPs leaving and some from safe seats. A lot of pre-selection battles going on.

    I’m currently hating the current line of ‘everything’s ok. Look, now we have eleven women in Cabinet’. Rudd tweeted that he doesn’t look through the prism of gender. He just uses meritocracy. Meritocracy is exactly the word the Liberal Party uses to excuse the lack of women in their Cabinet. So, there’s only 11 women in Cabinet? If you’re just using merit as your guide, surely there should be a Cabinet made up of 50% women?

    This isn’t to say Rudd is misogynist, or sexist. It’s to say that merit is a culturally loaded concept. It’s impossible not to use the prism of gender, at least in part, when you talk about the ‘meritocracy’.

  155. David

    Liz:
    Women aren’t inherently more competent than blokes – as with any men, you’d get a fair amount of women that are promoted beyond their level of competence.

    What’s with this bizzare treating of women as saints?

    Just ask Myra Hindley or Gertrude Baniszewski.

  156. Chris

    Kim Carr has said he’d like to restore university funding. But it’s ‘aspirational’ because it’s worth a bit.

    Hah, stealing lines from Abbott now!

    I’m currently hating the current line of ‘everything’s ok. Look, now we have eleven women in Cabinet’.

    That line probably came out of trying to do some damage control over removing a woman as PM. The same reason they leaked that 3 women were being appointed to cabinet the day before to ensure they got some headlines.

    So, there’s only 11 women in Cabinet? If you’re just using merit as your guide, surely there should be a Cabinet made up of 50% women?

    Well he can’t appoint people outside of parliament can he? So probably closer to 35% which he just misses out at with 31% in cabinet.

    Is great to see Lundy get the digital economy portfolio. We actually have someone who has both a personal interest and educational background in charge!

  157. Brian

    Chris ‘aspirational’ was my word, not Kim Carr’s. I’m kinda saying we are going to get that sort of stuff from Labor too because no-one wants to face up to the notion that we need to pay more taxes.

  158. Liz

    David, would you like to point out where I said women are more competent then men?

    Chris, that’s my point. The idea of ‘merit’ isn’t neutral. I’m talking about structural inequalities. You’ll notice that I specifically said that I wasn’t calling Rudd sexist. But, to talk glibly about meritocracy misses out on so much reality.

  159. Russell

    A nice co-incidence: on the day the treacherous sociopath sidelines him, one of the most able ALP MPs releases another book

  160. Liz

    Russell, he maybe a treacherous psychopath. But he’s our treacherous psychopath.

  161. Jumpy

    I once thought I knew what both Meritocracy and Misogyny meant literally.
    I must get one of those feminist dictionaries it seems.
    Anyone got a recommendation ?

  162. Russell

    Like Gary Gray is one of ours too?

    Nice to see Joel Fitzgibbon back in the ministry – must have been a struggle on a backbencher’s salary.

  163. Jumpy

    According to Brians 2nd link @141 there is NO Minister for Sport.
    I must thank Kate Lundy for trashing the portfolio so soundly it no longer exists.
    ( Jumpy can, for the next 30 minutes, be found on his front yard doing his version of the ” Happy Dance “) 🙂 🙂 🙂

  164. Brian

    Russell @ 159, I’m increasingly unhappy about labelling Rudd a psychopath or a sociopath. I don’t believe he’s either.

    When John Mendoza said he was mentally ill in 2010 I thought he was qualified to say so. Turns out he wasn’t.

    I do think he was under a lot of pressure in 2010, but I don’t think it’s for anyone unqualified to pronounce on his mental state. Indeed there is increasingly a question as to how certain mental states are being medicalised, with the US exporting its notion of crazy.

    I think Rudd is a very unusual character and would question whether one word could do justice to his personality.

  165. Russell

    Brian, naturally I don’t apply the term as the DSM might define it, this is just blog comments …. but I can drop that word, and refer to him as the treacherous narcissist if you prefer.

  166. Jumpy

    Brian

    I think Rudd is a very unusual character and would question whether one word could do justice to his personality.

    I totally agree. When Bilb was saying the same of Abbott I had the same misgivings, only I don’t have the ability to articulate my thoughts as well as you.

  167. faustusnotes

    I thought Australia used the ICD-10 to categorize mental disorders?

  168. Jumpy

    From me;

    According to Brians 2nd link @141 there is NO Minister for Sport.

    Happy dance ended, Senator Don Farrell is it.
    He’s the back room union boy that took SA number 1 ticket off Wong only to give it back when the consequences of his scheming was exposed.

  169. Nickws

    I called Latham a psycho on the main bout thread, I suppose I have to retract that.

    Of course retired old Biff doesn’t have silent majority ALP voter demo support like KRudd does, or a group of enthusiasts like Gillard has. So it’s not like I expect to get a cease and desist from Latham ‘fans’ in 2013.

  170. Chris

    Jumpy @ 168 – this is Australia – there would be a revolution if there was no minister for sport!

  171. paul walter

    Well clarified Brian B, he is not a psychopath; he does have flaws, so did Julia Gillard and most certainly so do key Opposition figures.
    Is Murdoch a bit borderline?
    Anyway, as Liz says, even if he is pathological, he’s ours .
    His particular grasp of the Opposition mentality and political tactics generally may come in handy , if a couple of rogue polls can be confirmed over coming months.

  172. paul burns

    Funny, but nobody seemed to want to mention this on ABCTVNews or 9 or 7 this morning.
    http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/morgan-poll-july1-2013-201307010635

    Wonder why?

  173. Liz

    Paul, I notice for some reason, Morgan never gets reported. Labor was leading 51/49 last Decrmber, according to them. But, that didn’t get reported either.

  174. Katz

    The Morgan Poll indicates that the ALP gender gap grew after the return of Rudd.

    Is Kev a chick magnet?

  175. akn

    Allegations about people’s mental health draw their power from prejudice. They are easy to make, impossible to prove and impossible to refute. Moreover, in an objectively insane world, for evidence of which see the issue of global warming, such allegations confound the possibility of reasoned dialogue.

    Besides which, it has been my experience that the issue of mental wellness is decidedly classed, gendered and ethnicised so that those whose class, gender and ethnic background are rooted in privilege tend to be seen as successful, no matter how totally mad they may in fact be, and their behaviour is seen as eccentric at worst or even as exemplary of the right attitude. Short: money buys credibility; poverty gets you a diagnosis.

    Perhaps we could simply describe Rudd’s behaviour in terms of disapproval without resorting to the age old bullying tactic of labeling.

  176. Chris

    Morgan was reported either on news.com.au or smh but wasn’t a headline. Rudd’s media honeymoon is definitely over though! Including presumably a leak from Lundy’s office about the way she was informed she was losing the sports ministry

  177. Shingle

    akn, somewhere in my uni days they taught us that getting personal in arguments/debates has the Latin name argumentum ad hominem. It reminds us that the ancients before us had grappled with it. Here’s a bit about it: http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/person.html

    Have been enjoying reading bits and pieces on LP during the past week. My feminism has not prevented me from being enthusiastic about Rudd’s return, in fact when I wake up in the morning to realise I am on board the Optimism Express (from Lefty E) I can hardly wipe the smile off my face. But I do sympathise with those who are disappointed as I know the feeling… It seems to be the fate of some of us to find ourselves connecting with political heroes/heroines – the emotion runs deep as we join our personal experiences, hopes, beliefs to the public sphere, and individuals come to represent so much. I am aware that I have to struggle sometimes to get above my own prejudices. When it all gets tense and heated I am grateful I don’t live in e.g. Syria…

  178. Helen

    It seems to be the fate of some of us to find ourselves connecting with political heroes/heroines – the emotion runs deep as we join our personal experiences, hopes, beliefs to the public sphere, and individuals come to represent so much. I am aware that I have to struggle sometimes to get above my own prejudices.

    You could attribute our disappointment in the manner of Gillard’s going in purely personal terms as our emotional attachment to her as an individual. But you would be wrong. And a tad patronising. (there’s a pun in there somewhere but too laboured for most of us, I think…)

  179. faustusnotes

    I don’t consider it a preference, Shingle: I consider Gillard to be, on the evidence, a better leader than Rudd. Unfortunately most of Australia doesn’t agree, so to win an election over the mad monk we need Rudd back. This disappoints me precisely because the only reason I can easily find for the failure of most of Australia to agree with me[1] is misogyny, and the (not unrelated) media hatred for Gillard – which I think is also founded in class antagonism.


    fn1: when I am so obviously always right

  180. zoot

    What faustusnotes said.

  181. Shingle

    Helen, I am really sorry if I sounded patronising because I am including myself in the ‘some of us’, I speak from personal experience – and I think it is only natural that we bring emotion as well as reason/intellect into our engagement with politics.

    Faustusnotes, there is no denying the misogyny factor, but the waters are muddied. I am wondering if anyone has done a comparison of how e.g. Anna Bligh was received by the electorate (as she did win an election with a clear majority) and whether it (misogyny) was a significant factor at any time.

    I have thought that perhaps the other issues may have given the misogynists more confidence to be so brazen and thus we had more loud and strident displays… .

  182. faustusnotes

    Anne Bligh is not the PM, Shingle, they aren’t comparable.

    Though she is a very impressive speaker (I compared her efforts with old vids of QMT during Keating’s era recently and she is far superior to any of the speakers of that time). I haven’t noticed her being credited with much, though.

  183. akn

    The misogynist treatment of Gillard was stomach turning and a profound disappointment.

    Perhaps, in order to retrieve something from such an ugly lesson, the next task here is to closely examine the nature of the misogynists and do so with a clear eye for their class and ethnic background.

    Maybe a thread on the subject of contemporary Australian misogyny?

    I’ll offer this much to kick off the idea: there is a cultural link between Alan Jones’ misogyny and the crude masculinist misogyny in rural Drastic. I’m not sure exactly what but think speculation on the subject would be fruitful.

  184. faustusnotes

    but akn, isn’t Alan Jones gay?

  185. Russell

    Shingle – like a couple of other commenters, I didn’t consider Gillard a heroine. I agreed with all of the points about her Fran made on her charge-sheet. (Don’t think I’ve had a political hero since Gough).

    My disappointment is that the ALP is offering the country a proven failure as PM. Rudd might be OK as one of those “Presidential Spokesman” you see in the U.S., but we know he can’t run a cabinet government, and his behaviour over the last three years has been abominable. The way he has chosen his new cabinet – leave out Andrew Leigh because he didn’t vote for Kevin – shows he has learnt nothing and will put his own interests above those of the country or party.

    Bit hard to avoid ad hominem remarks when you are talking about why a person is unfit for the job – I think megalomaniac or something similar is perfectly fair and apt comment.

  186. Chris

    You could attribute our disappointment in the manner of Gillard’s going in purely personal terms as our emotional attachment to her as an individual.

    I reckon a lot of the continuing public popularity of Rudd and the related unpopularity of Gillard was very much due to an emotional relationship he had and has with the general public quite unrelated to his actual performance. Perhaps a lot of it a hangover from the Howard era where he represented “hope”. And thus the backlash when he was removed by the party rather than the people because they were not only replacing the person but what he represented.

    Anne Bligh is not the PM, Shingle, they aren’t comparable

    Bligh came out of the Queensland floods with much more of a bounce than Gillard. For whatever reason she was able to much better connect with the general population than Gillard. IIRC Gillard even came put quite negatively, even with the billions of dollars that the federal government poured into the aftermath.

    Gillard certainly has a reputation of managing relationships well in person, she just wasn’t able to translate that well to the mass population. I think it’s akin to the problem that politicians had when mass media changed (eg radio or TV). Her team wasn’t able to harness the social media majority as well as Rudd either.

  187. faustusnotes

    Am I confusing Blighs? Maybe Shingle meant the explorer … oh my …

  188. Jumpy

    akn

    I’ll offer this much to kick off the idea: there is a cultural link between Alan Jones’ misogyny and the crude masculinist misogyny in rural Drastic. I’m not sure exactly what but think speculation on the subject would be fruitful.

    Without the word ” misogyny ” being substituted for the more accurate word ” sexism ” would be helpful.

    The % of Australians that hate women is infinitesimally small despite faustusnotes ( and others) stated observations.
    There is sexism no doubt and some of it advantages to women.

  189. Jumpy

    advantageous ( i wish I had an iPad to blame )

  190. Jumpy

    Anne Bligh is not the PM, Shingle, they aren’t comparable.

    And Anna Bligh won an election, so no, no comparison.
    But Shingle has a point worth hearing.

  191. akn

    fn @ 184: that’s my point here. AJ is homosexual, apparently, but that’s not the same as gay. He’s been accepted into the blokey ruling elites of Australia, despite his sexuality – rugby coach for the Wallabies, coach of the Balmain Tigers, played in every nursing home …

    It may be that there is a lot to explore here. Why does Jonesie’s sexism resonate so well with rural Australia and the private school educated elites?

  192. faustusnotes

    played in a couple of railway station toilets too, from what I’ve heard …

    I don’t think he is “accepted,” his homosexuality is never openly declared. Has he ever come out? Also, I think it is part of the reason John Laws hates him (popularity being another). I think the reason his sexism resonates so well is because it is sexism.

  193. akn

    Well, FN, there’s sexism and there’s sexism. I think AJ is a real woman hater and that hate is the bond between AJ and and elites who’ve been private school ‘educated’ … but along with the readin’ and ritin’ what they got was a deep dose of woman hate. The education immersed them and acculturated them to woman hate which is dominant within the Libs and the Nats and just rules the scene in many places.

  194. paul burns

    There is a category of homosexuals who really hate women, whom they see as potential sexual competition for any man they might be interested in, regardless of whether the man is interested in them or not. They were especially prevalent before homosexuality was legalised. Jones may be in this category, and his anti-Labor bias was probably reinforced by his hatred of women Labor politicians. Especially Gillard.
    I’ve not seen anybody attempt an analysis of Jones on this ground, though I haven’t read any of his biographers; some of them may have treated the question.
    Its pretty dangerous ground, for several reasons, I suppose.

  195. mindy

    How about we agree that Jones did not like Gillard and leave it at that?

  196. faustusnotes

    akn, most elite-school educated types, and in general most members of the upper-middle and upper class, tend to depict the working class as intensely misogynist. This is a strong part of the “inner-city latte sipping leftist” insult – that only upper class people with no financial worries “concern” themselves with “toy” issues like feminism and such like, and that the outer suburban working classes (Howard’s battlers) are unreconstructed, politically-incorrect woman- and migrant-haters.

    I don’t think therefore that your view of the elites being taught misogyny with their 3Rs really works. Certainly the class warriors of the right see feminism and pro-reconciliation views as being a play-thing of a kind of idle and naive do-gooding wealthy class, quite the opposite of a view that misogyny has no bedrock in the working class.

    I don’t want to go all radical feminist on your arse, but misogyny is like G, a fixed constant in the universe (though unlike G it at least varies over time). You don’t need to stretch the tale into fancy class-based analysis to get why AJ’s misogyny is popular with his listeners.

    Also, I think it’s worth bearing in mind that AJ has a wide range of hatreds, and it’s likely that his real appeal is in ensuring that each individual member of his audience can overlook the hatred that offends them personally because he reassures them with so many others.

    He captures the whole venn diagram of hatred, not just the intersection. So his female listeners endure his misogyny in order to enjoy his racism and class hatred; his male bogan listeners tune out his class hatred so they can lap up the racism and misogyny; and so on.

    Kind of like free internet pr0n: you have to tune out the bits you don’t want, ’cause what you see is all you’re getting. It’s that or get off your fat arse and find (and pay!) for entertainment that precisely matches your needs. Why bother, when it’s right there for free?

  197. faustusnotes

    mods, I got caught in moderation! Please fish my insightful, world-changing comment out …?

  198. akn

    Mindy:

    I don’t know why you’d want to foreclose on such a discussion. Is there a reason you’d like to let it go?

  199. David

    This applies to those who deserted Gillard for Rudd:

    He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.

  200. faustusnotes

    … and the vision of the future will forever be a smug blond man zipping it…

  201. Katz

    Fair suck on the sauce bottle. Kev isn’t Big Brother. He’s just a double plus good flesh presser.

  202. GregM

    Fair suck on the sauce bottle. Kev isn’t Big Brother. He’s just a double plus good flesh presser.

    And toad.

  203. zorronsky

    Give it a break! Jones was anti-labor long before Gillard. Don’t tip your own prejudice out for all to see.

  204. Nickws

    This applies to those who deserted Gillard for Rudd

    You boasting about being a Green primary voter who still follows Gillard, eh?

    Not that I don’t welcome those Green primary voters who are reconciling themselves to the one and only chance to prevent a Coalition supermajority.

  205. faustusnotes

    zorronsky, that may be the case but it doesn’t explain his intense misogyny and violent language when describing Gillard (and women in politics generally). And akn’s musings aren’t about AJ’s attitude to Gillard specifically, but to women in general.

  206. Mindy

    I don’t think discussing Alan Jones’ proclivities is worthwhile is all. Although I have no time for the vile man, nowdays I try not to discuss the bedroom activities of anyone. I revile Howard Sattler for doing so and doing so myself for someone else would be rather hypocritical. I probably should have been clearer on that point. Discuss why he doesn’t like Gillard until the cows come home, and possible reasons for his misogyny but leave lengthy discussions of his sexuality out of it IMHO.

  207. Lefty E

    FWIW: Latest Morgan ALP 51.5 – LNP 48.5

    Main swing is from women voters.

    Analysis by Gender shows both genders again swinging towards the ALP after Rudd’s return. Women now clearly favour the ALP (54%, up 3%) cf. L-NP (46%, down 3%) on a two party preferred basis while men favour the L-NP (51.5%, down 1%) cf. ALP (48.5%, up 1%).

    http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/morgan-poll-july1-2013-201307010635

  208. Ambigulous

    Folks, I just wanna say I took one for the team last night and watched Q&A.
    Ya know? There was a whole new buzz in the room. Folks were cooking with gas. Bit of laughter, bit of cheering; not so much mindless negativity.

    Young feller had “WTF!” on his T-shirt, and he was a panellist.

    A bit of biffo between Minister Plibersek and MP Sophie Mirabella, but why not have a real knock-em-down debate, ya know?

    Folk offered their views on Kevin57, but there was no sense of incredulity/shock. The people seem to have taken The Ascension in their strides. Or sauce bottles, do you get my drift?

    Sophie kept on about back-stabbing, but I guess that was Sophie’s Choice. Others were more philosophical. In fact Sophie was bluffing and blustering I thought.

    Anyway, you could have knocked us over with a feather duster at the end. Tony says the next episode is on Thursday live from Djakarta – wherever that is – with Kevin57 chewing the old fat with some locals; so I reckon he wants a Gough-in-Peking moment, and he might get it.

    Fair suck of the satay sauce, bonzer, Fair Dinkum.

  209. faustusnotes

    Sorry Mindy, my only intention with that question was to suggest that akn’s analytical categories are limited: he suggested class and ethnic drivers of misogyny, but I would think if there are going to be identity-driven determinants of misogyny, surely being gay would be relevant. I hope I made clear that I don’t think it is: different animals’ shit may smell different, but it’s all shit.

  210. Katz

    And toad.

    I’m confident that Kev, in a spirit of collegiality and self knowledge, is quite prepared to accept ownership of his reptilian propensities.

  211. faustusnotes

    that won’t get him very far with the toad demographic though, will it?

  212. mindy

    No worries FN 🙂

  213. Jumpy

    Please No Katz, don’t start the ” is a toad a reptile ” debate, thing can get ugly enough without that.

  214. Katz

    Yes. Toads are mostly rusted on Coalition voters.

  215. Paul Norton

    In a news item on mooted changes to Labor’s higher education policy, Andrew Norton (no relation) has been introduced on ABC News Radio as being from a “left-leaning thinktank”. He will be amused, perhaps.

  216. Paul Norton

    Monday was the 30th anniversary of the High Court decision that confirmed the environmental movement’s victory in the Franklin Dam campaign. Here is the most potent image from that campaign.

  217. Jumpy

    Toads are mostly rusted on Coalition voters.

    Really? I’ve never seen the word “coalition” on any ballot papers at any polling booth I’ve visited.

  218. Katz

    Doubtless, Jumpie’s accounts of his travels to voting booths the length and breadth of this great land of ours form a time-consuming, though riveting, narrative.

  219. Jumpy

    @218
    Meeeoow!!

  220. jules

    Certainly the class warriors of the right see feminism and pro-reconciliation views as being a play-thing of a kind of idle and naive do-gooding wealthy class, quite the opposite of a view that misogyny has no bedrock in the working class.

    – fn

    I think you’re confusing seeing those issues in that light with framing them that way for political/cultural gain.

    I think they saw those issues as resonating across society and framed them that way to de-legitimise them. It appears to have worked.

  221. Paul Norton

    In 2000 the maximum rate of rent assistance with Newstart Allowance was $82.60 per fortnight. This year the maximum rate is $123.00 per fortnight. Yet median rents in Australia have more than doubled in that period. I have just written to our reappointed Prime Minister and our newly appointed Ministers for Housing and for Human Services pointing this out.

  222. akn

    Mindy: I agree that AJ’s sexuality is not a subject fit for decent conversation. Besides, I think Roy and HG said all that needs to be said about that matter.

    The issue is the specifics of misogyny: who carries it forward, can it be attributed to particular classes and groups of men, which ones, where do they learn this stuff, how is it reinforced, what is the process of misogynist acculturation?

    fn: yes, sexuality is a factor although I initially hesitated to mention it because I didn’t want to appear to be attacking certain subgroups within the homosexual community; there’s enough anti-gay sentiment around without adding to it. My own experience of the language used by some gay men to describe women suggests that there are strong undercurrents of misogyny within the gay community.

    Just an idea.

  223. jules

    BTW Since its taboo to speculate on whether or not Rudd and Abbott are psychos here are two articles that aren’t written by doctors but that certainly speculate and reinforce my own prejudices.

    http://psychopathyinfo.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/characteristics-of-corporate-psychopaths-and-their-corporations/

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-freeman/are-politicians-psychopaths_b_1818648.html

    And here’s an awesome facebook page. Right now the top of the thing (I don’t do facebook, is it a timeline?) has an article about some fox news anchor calling Indigenous Americans illegal immigrants.

    https://www.facebook.com/PsychopathsRuleTheWorld

  224. Brian

    jules, my understanding is that psychopathy is not a mental illness, rather a personality type. The ‘psycho’ label is clearly colloquial, based on a stereotype.

    If people are using the ‘misogyny’ term, please remember its extended definition ”entrenched prejudices against women”.

    In other news, Malcolm Fraser is campaigning for Sarah Hanson Young to try to prevent Abbott from taking over the senate.

    Also Alan Griffin who packed up his office a few weeks ago now has to find a new one to settle in as a parliamentary secretary.

    Ed Husic swore allegiance on the Koran, which brought a torrent of abuse. My wife liked the woman who rang in and said, “I don’t care if he swears on a pile of pancakes, as long as he does a good job!” I suspect the whole practice is a leftover of the Divine Right of Kings.

  225. Helen

    Faustusnotes @196 and others, Ta-nehisi Coates had some interesting things to say recently on the intersection of class and how it affects the expression of sexism:

    I’ve observed this before about the housing riots in mid-20th century Chicago. Those with the most power segregated black people through a dignified “urban renewal.” Those with the least were reduced to brick-throwing, arson and riot. A few weeks ago my wife asked me if I would ever engage in cat-calling. I told her that as I am now–respected writer with a son in private school, a wife studying at an Ivy, and latte at the ready–I would not. But had things gone some other way (as they easily could have) I can’t say what I’d do. Street harassment is a kind of implied violence, a tool most embraced by those who lack the power to set laws, men who are in doubt of themselves. Real men objectify women with dignity and decorum.

    The macho pose, the loud talking, the insistence on violence as resolution, the boastfulness, marks the formative portion of my life. The men who participated in this behavior were no more sexist then the men I know now. But they lacked power. And they came from generations of men who lacked power. And they came up in society that claimed such power as the essence of manhood.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/07/manhood-among-the-ruins/277456/

  226. Helen

    Can we all just agree that toads are amphibians and leave it at that?

  227. jules

    Brian I agree re psychopathy. And the stereotype refers (in my usage anyway) to people who use power ruthlessly and without consideration for the … karma (for lack of a better word) it causes.

    – I’m using karma in its original sense – ie as the consequences of action especially the unforseen ones that can reverberate for generations. (slightly off kilter eg – Ned Kelly is a (small) part of Cromwell’s karma.) –

    I think our society/culture selects for those traits tho, for short term immediate gratification not for consideration of long term consequences or results. Corporate and political models do – profit and re – election in less than 4 years, (or even poll results in less than a week) are short term and indicate immediate gratification.

    Consider Rudd re the leadership and Abbott re the last election result. I find it hard to see a difference between their behaviour, apart from the cosmetic differences and the fact Rudd succeeded and Abbott failed. Which is Ok I spose cos if they’re both psychos then we can stop judging them on their personality and make our decisions based on the policies their parties plan to implement.

  228. Jumpy

    If people are using the ‘misogyny’ term, please remember its extended definition ”entrenched prejudices against women”.

    Yea right, that’s fantastic.

    As for Husic swearing on a Koran, I prefer that to an atheist ( like me or …….) swearing on a Bible.

  229. akn

    fn @ 196 I just found that comment.

    I’m working off Mike Donaldson and Scott Poynting’s Snakes and Leaders- Hegemonic Masculinity in Ruling-Class Boys’ Boarding Schools (PDF). They illustrate the key role of such schools in creating and recreating hegemonic masculinity part of which appears to be a deep streak of misogyny.

    I’m wondering, for example, about the role of AJ’s misogyny in the private schools and the blokey echelons of Rugby and League.His hatred didn’t appear to handicap his run at all. His hate speech on radio is popular, inconceivable as that might be to a broad left. There’s something more going on here.

  230. Nick

    fn, I liked your Venn diagram explanation, but I think akn had it right – the worst misogyny for mine is rooted in private boys schools.

    I’m not surprised to find Jones was educated at Toowoomba Grammar, and then went on to teach at Brisbane Grammar, and then The King’s School,

    Parramatta. Add to that his mens’ sports coaching, and that’s about all I need to know about Alan Jones.

    The hostility and viciousness of the attacks on female politicians has increased in response to their increased prominence and success – as Gillard has

    suggested I think.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NoSqjrgqgA

    Women were barely a threat in federal politics back twenty years ago.

    In short: men are more desperate now. Desperate about not being talked back to and shown up. Desperate in competitive terms – if women can go for the same job as you, you’ve only got half as much chance of getting that job.

    It’s a positive. People only act desperately when they know they’re about to lose something.

    Private boys schools are going the way of the dodo…pretty much like all men-only traditions and cultures in Australian society.

  231. akn

    Yes Nick. We’d have to include the Australian Army as a male institution in real trouble as well.

    Helen: an odd note of synchronicity in relation to the article you linked above. My grandmother was a key figure in the anti-eviction street fighting that went on in the Newcastle suburbs around Wickham and Tighes Hill during the depression. Many of the female householders had whistles which they would blow when the bailiffs and coppers turned up which would bring neighbours running.

    Similar self defense went on all around Australia during the depression years. I think resort to violent resistance against gross class violence, like eviction, is not the preserve of men alone.

  232. Jumpy

    Nick @230
    You should join Emily’s List, but erm.., not if your a male.

    Or the ” Femnasium ” up the road, but erm.., not if your a male

  233. Chris

    Yes Nick. We’d have to include the Australian Army as a male institution in real trouble as well.

    They get a lot of media attention, and without wanting to excuse the criminal behavior which occurs I wonder relative to the general population if what happens in the defence forces is worse. I used to play in a casual sporting competition which included ADFA teams. And their behaviour on-court was far better than most.

  234. Katz

    That’s not my experience of soldier sporting outfits Chris. I played for four years in a basketball comp that included a soldier team.

    Most members of that outfit were violent, vengeful, talentless thugs who took umbrage at these facts being pointed out to them, both during and after games, despite incontrovertible supportive scoreboard evidence.

  235. duncan

    I’m not entirely sure why we want much of our army to be anything other than violent thugs.

  236. faustusnotes

    Helen, that’s a nice quote. I often hear about Ta-nehisi Coates, but I have never been able to find his blog. Do you have a link? He’s an almost mystical figure to me because I can’t figure out where to read him … maybe I should ask the NSA (hi guys!).

    akn, Nick, I think you’re confusing your personal experiences with a theory of the universe. Every man is familiar with a group of people who are “the worst misogynists” in their class/race background. I have spent 20 years in the martial arts and let me tell you, some of what I have heard in boxing clubs and most especially in the weapon arts (primarily for me, arnis) qualifies as the worst of the worst. Having had zero contact with elite private schools, I would naturally assume those people (white working class men primarily, tradies and the like) were the worst. Which makes my point: it’s a general property, it’s just expressed differently in different places.

  237. faustusnotes

    Also my experience with soldiers at kick-boxing and martial arts venues was universally good with zero evidence of misogyny. I think it’s important to separate the individuals from the structural factors there. It’s not the soldiers, it’s the institution that brings out the worst in some of those soldiers and encourages teh rest to turn a blind eye.

  238. Luxxe

    Bob Carr must be feeling redundant ….

  239. akn

    Yes, well fn, I’m not sure quite how your experience of the military in the martial arts fits in with this discussion which is why I linked to a quite readable article on hegemonic masculinity … as an attempt to provide some sort of framework. We’ve all had all sorts of experiences that do or don’t support or confound various theories which is where the sociology of Donaldson and Poynting would be useful.

    But never mind.

    As to the Australian military I’ve never had anything but positive experiences with current serving personnel or war vets. One of my most memorable acquaintances was a member of Sparrow Force, the irregulars in East Timor in WWII; he was an absolute gentleman. The media reports, so far as I can tell, appear to relate primarily, currently, to Duntroon FWIW.

  240. faustusnotes

    akn, that article you linked to is just a case study, not providing any kind of framework. With no control group for comparison (e.g. an orphanage or just a normal school) it doesn’t establish that the form of masculinity in Trinity Grammar is “special”; without comparison with other similar schools (mixed and single sex) it doesn’t show whether or not what happened there was unique. It doesn’t identify what about the incidents described is “special” – do you think the same kinds of incidents don’t happen in prisons and military academies? Is the response different to the response to bullying in a normal private school? Is the issue of one of simply degree and if so is this due to the isolation rather than the ruling class culture? None of these questions are adequately answered and there is no comparator.

    My point in describing martial arts schools is to show that misogyny of quite vile kinds exists across all areas of society, and Nick’s (or indeed that paper’s author’s) experience of a particular form of it in a particular context is not enough to prove that context is special. Just because bad stuff happens in an elite setting doesn’t suddenly make it a hallmark of that elite and a necessity for the reproduction of power of that elite. It may be a common phenomenon, simply expressed in the language, manners and special customs of that elite.

    Like I said earlier, all animals shit. It’s only the colour and the smell that varies.

  241. Helen

    Only too happy FN.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/ta-nehisi-coates/

    Ta-Nehisi Coates is a senior editor at The Atlantic, where he writes about culture, politics, and social issues. He is the author of the memoir The Beautiful Struggle.
    Born in 1975, the product of two beautiful parents. Raised in West Baltimore — not quite The Wire, but sometimes ill all the same. Studied at the Mecca for some years in the mid-’90s. Emerged with a purpose, if not a degree. Slowly migrated up the East Coast with a baby and my beloved, until I reached the shores of Harlem. Wrote some stuff along the way.

  242. Russell

    Women ignorant about current affairs.

    Well, it’s a little more complex than that.

    This: “Girls aren’t born not interested in politics – any more than boys are born engaged with it. Boys are shaped to be interested in it and feel they have a stake in it and people are listening to them.”

  243. akn

    Yes, well, thanks fn for your repudiation of the article and whatever authority may attach to it. If you can locate similar research material that meets your high standards, one that also deals with the subject of hegemonic masculinity, then I’d really enjoy reading it.

    As to vile misogyny and the martial arts let me say that whenever I’ve encountered same I’ve removed myself from contact with the perpetrators. The fact that, in a discussion about hegemonic masculinity and misogyny, you chose to cite your martial arts experience speaks volumes to me about your own masculinity.

  244. Ambigulous

    Luxxe @238
    Bob Carr feeling redundant?

    I don’t think so. I feel Kevin57 is working towards (what he hopes will be) a big advance on asylum-seekers with Indonesia this week. Foreign Minister Carr has been paving the way, I think. First the sharp and specific claim of “economic refugees” just a couple of hours after the Kevin57 ascendancy, as Bob Carr was about to visit Indonesia.

    Then Kevin57 followed up with similar comments. Q&A scheduled to broadcast from Jakarta tomorrow. The PM will want a big splash. What more fitting than something tangible on asylum seekers? (It’ll have to be something that doesn’t require recalling Parliament, I suppose.) But the PM is working to a tight schedule.

    No doubt DFAT is periodically in touch with ASEAN nations about these matters. Any advance doesn’t have to be “shooting from the hip”.
    So let’s see what the Kev & Bob Show produces.

  245. faustusnotes

    I’m glad you agree with my analysis of the article, akn. You’re the expert in the field, so I’m sure you can find better.

    pray tell, akn, what volumes of information have you gleaned from my decision to refer to my personal experience of misogynist culture in martial arts?

  246. GregM

    [email protected] in response to an observation by fn that his “experience with soldiers at kick-boxing and martial arts venues was universally good with zero evidence of misogyny.”

    The fact that, in a discussion about hegemonic masculinity and misogyny, you chose to cite your martial arts experience speaks volumes to me about your own masculinity.

    LP Comments policy on verboten naughtiness;

    Imputing ideas or motives to others or stereotyping them because of perceived group membership or ideological affiliation.

    I am at a loss as to how Anthony’s comment on fn’s masculinity based on fn’s reported observations of members of the armed forces he had encountered at martial arts events can be anything other than stereotyping.

    And also extremely silly.

  247. Ambigulous

    I dips me lid to Kevin for the way he’s challenging Mr Abbott to public debates.

    7.30 Report and The Age online

    “Mr Abbott, I think it’s time you demonstrated to the country you have a bit of ticker on this. He’s the boxing blue. I’m the glasses-wearing kid in the library.”

    ** brilliant **

    Puts Mr Abbott on the spot.
    Who’s brave?
    It puts lycra-flaunting fitness displays in a new perspective: do they matter, if the lycra king won’t debate policy?

    What does the country want? Iron Man muscles or well thought out plans and directions?

    At one stroke, the PM redefines political courage. Will the electorate back the glasses-wearing kid in the library?

  248. GregM

    I feel Kevin57 is working towards (what he hopes will be) a big advance on asylum-seekers with Indonesia this week. Foreign Minister Carr has been paving the way, I think. First the sharp and specific claim of “economic refugees” just a couple of hours after the Kevin57 ascendancy, as Bob Carr was about to visit Indonesia.

    So let’s see what the Kev & Bob Show produces.

    What do you think we can hope for Ambi?

    Indonesia agreeing to process asylum seekers onshore to weed out economic refugees before they let the rest of them onto the boats to make their journey to Christmas Island?

    Australia ceding Christmas Island to Indonesia, leaving a great stack of asylum seekers stuck there with no prospect of making the journey to Australia?

  249. akn

    fn: yes, I have credentials as a sociologist; sociology doesn’t generally require ‘control’ groups; that’s a matter for much more scientifically oriented projects. sociology is, and always has been back to Saint-Simon and Fourier, speculative, adventurous, exploratory. This doesn’t mean that data isn’t required but it certainly does mean that it is motivated as much by a spirit of inquiry as it is by the need to ground theory in evidence.

    No, I won’t be looking for further articles on hegemonic masculinity to satisfy your technocratic ego. I think the concept of hegemony is over your head so there’s no point.

    What I’ve gleaned about you is that you’re a human bagpipe – you groan and shriek pointlessly into the wind, drowning out even the possibility of sensible conversation.

  250. GregM

    sociology doesn’t generally require ‘control’ groups; that’s a matter for much more scientifically oriented projects. sociology is, and always has been back to Saint-Simon and Fourier, speculative, adventurous, exploratory. This doesn’t mean that data isn’t required but it certainly does mean that it is motivated as much by a spirit of inquiry as it is by the need to ground theory in evidence.

    So it’s a complete waste of time then? It must be if it gives as little regard to evidence as you say it does.

  251. faustusnotes

    so akn, there’s no such thing as comparative sociology? You guys just float about with no sense of whether your adventurous, exploratory observations have any generalizability, but through your singular efforts are able to claim the construction of a general theory of hegemony that is over my head?

    I guess it must be, since I can’t fathom how anyone can construct a general framework of elitist misogyny from the perverse doings of one group of students in one specific school at one specific point in time on the edge of the universe. That, sir, is truly above my pay grade.

  252. Ambigulous

    GregM @248

    A few of these, perhaps:

    More AFP officers working in Indonesian ports and cities.
    Measures aiming to make more likely the extradition of alleged “people smugglers” from Indonesia to Australia.
    Increase in penalties under Australian & Indonesian law for people smuggling offences.
    Australian Coast Guard revisited?
    Immediate repatriation from Darwin, Christmas Island, of smuggler crew (not captains).
    Increase of our quota of ‘poorest of the poor’ genuine refugees from Africa, Middle East taken in safely by plane.
    Scorn and derision poured from highest official levels on “towing back the boats”.
    Humanitarian maritime search-and-rescue efforts increased.

    ***
    I’m not aware of any Indonesian designs on Christmas Island [“Pulau Ramadan”?] Nor of any map labelling our mainland as “South Irian”. My view is that we should decease excision.

  253. Nick

    fn, to be clear, I was discussing Alan Jones and his ilk. Not seeking a universal theory on misogyny based on class. Martial arts clubs are male dominated sports clubs. I also mentioned his connections with those, and football clubs aren’t exactly ‘classy’.

    I will, however, stand by my earth-shattering claim that private boys schools are one of the worst breeding grounds of misogyny. The key difference is the very early age at which you’re introduced to an all-male learning environment, and the decade or so you spend in that environment. Essentially, you learn that the only women worth respecting are the ones whose parents have more money than you (high school girls? they’re just a pack of sluts aren’t they?)

    In the army, you’re taught that women’s decisions don’t count at all. Wives and children are expected to up and move interstate at the drop of a hat, no questions asked. As my mother-in-law facetiously put it tonight “What? You don’t have a wife? We can issue you with one of those.”

  254. alfred venison

    comparative sociology

    the danger of this approach is that the different social contexts are overlooked in the search for supposed universal structures.

    there is some debate within sociology regarding whether the label of ‘comparative’ is suitable.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_sociology

    dig your stuff, akn. -a.v.

  255. alfred venison

    and when did david marr become a psychoanalyst ? you guys were quick to lap up what he said about rudd with demanding he show his credentials or demonstrate his experimental methodology. -a.v.

  256. wantok

    The Queensland government have discovered that the politicians’ pay freeze is ‘illegal’ and the only way that they can comply with the law is to take an immediate $57,000 annual pay increase (backdated). This mysterious ‘law’ must be so entrenched that it cannot be changed by a government with a massive majority and no upper house to contest.

    Does anybody know the name of this immutable law; I was thinking that I should check it out in case I too am breaking the law by not accepting massive largesse from the taxpayer ?

  257. Nick

    wantock, I think it’s called the “yes, there is such a thing as a free lunch, but we just ate it, and we’ll happily watch you starve to death” law. Pretty unwieldy title, I admit.

  258. akn

    GregM @ 250: the antidote to the engineer’s view of sociology is C Wright Mills ‘The Sociological Imagination’ (1959) which can be understood thus:

    To have a sociological imagination, a person must be able to pull away from the situation and think from an alternative point of view.

  259. akn

    Yes, a.v., Marr immersed himself in the worst of amateur psychobabble to produce the most gratuitous hatchet job on Rudd, absolutely pointless and poisonous.

  260. Brian

    Rudd announces federal intervention in NSW branch.

    This bloke means business. Awesome!

  261. Paul Norton

    Brian @260, it’s occurred to me that Rudd could be taking Peter Beattie’s hard line on the Shepherdson Inquiry findings, and subsequent landslide victory in the 2001 Queensland State election, as a model for how he want sto deal with the NSW branch.

  262. Sam

    Rudd could be planning to run against his own party, just like Beattie.

    The strategy might be crazy or might just be crazy enough to work.

  263. Liz

    Sam, I think that’s one of the things that is appealing about Rudd. He’s seen as not being ‘of’ the party and lots of people like that. I also think that the Lib’s “look at all the horrible things Labor say about him” ads may not be very effective. People don’t like pollies, so they may like Rudd because pollies don’t like him.

  264. alfred venison

    i’ve always thought if rudd takes over he’ll have a reform mandate. or he’ll make one. -a.v.

  265. alfred venison

    one of the things i like about rudd is that he’s an artshole & not a another lawyer. nathan rees, too, an english grad & milton man. -a.v.

  266. akn

    Liz @ 263: for once we agree!

    I also think that Rudd’s recent tactic of demanding that Abbott debate him, his positioning of himself as the library nerd over and against Abbott’s Oxford Blue masculinity, is excellent. It goes to the issue of how to deal with hegemonic masculinity – you may not be a part of the hegemon but must always orient yourself to it. In this instance he is playing Abbott at his own game from the position of subordinate masculinity.

    Very clever.

  267. Sam

    Liz 263

    Rudd is, or portrays himself as,0 the outsider’s outsider.

    I doubt that Rudd has a single friend inside the Labor Party. They turned to him in desperation in December 2006, despite hating him, because Howard was heading for yet another victory. They turned against him effortlessly in June 2010 because they hated him. They turned to him in desperation in June 2013, despite hating him, because Gillard was heading for a catastrophic loss.

  268. Liz

    As Katz as pointed out, fear beat hate.

  269. Liz

    Alfred venison, we have a choice between two psychopaths. Count me out about being thrilled about two men competing against each other about who’s the strongest bull in the paddock.

  270. alfred venison

    sorry, i don’t understand. i’m just pleased as an arts grad that there is an arts grad at the top and not another lawyer. i’m not saying you should be thrilled about anything. nathan rees was an arts grad too who tried to clean up the nsw labor paty and got removed for his trouble. -a.v.

  271. Sam

    Alfred venison, we have a choice between two psychopaths

    Surely you mean sociopaths.

    Rudd has his problems but he’s not Ivan Milat.

  272. Liz

    I’ll go with sociopath, Sam.

  273. Jumpy

    Rudd announces ALP corruption and Union corruption are 1 and the same.
    Awesome!

    Tries to pin the blame on property developers ?
    Mendacious !!!

  274. faustusnotes

    I would say that Rudd’s debate-me tactic is very much part of the macho culture. How would it have been received if Gillard had played it, I wonder? (I do like it as a tactic, but then I’m a kickboxing bully-boy, right?)

    I also like Rudd’s attitude on debt and deficit. It will be nice to see that brought to the fore.

    akn, are you saying at 258 that scientists and engineers don’t pull away and get an alternative view? Have you ever heard of this guy called Albert Einstein?

  275. alfred venison

    everyone’s ehard of einstein. but einsten couldn’t get his head around quantum mechanics, though, he couldn’t pull away & get an alternative view on that. “god does not play dice with the universe”. -a.v.

  276. faustusnotes

    so what? Relativity and the photo-electric effect not enough for you?

  277. Tim Macknay

    It’s true that scientists and engineers can be ideologically inflexible at times. On the other hand, sociologists and other “artsholes” can be insufferably pretentious. And vice versa, of course. Swings and roundabouts, really.

    And as for lawyers, well the less said about them the better…

  278. Chris

    I would say that Rudd’s debate-me tactic is very much part of the macho culture. How would it have been received if Gillard had played it, I wonder?

    I thin it would have worked better. She would not have even had to go into the library nerd analogy as the implication of cowardice if he refused would have been implied. I really like Rudd’s tactic of organising a venue anyway when Abbott has refused a debate. It will be a good opportunity to expose the lack of policy detail in the LNP platform – a much better one than parliament where the public expects them to throw mud at each other.

  279. Liz

    Rudd may be an arts graduate, but I remember him well calling Bill Henson’s photos revolting, in 2008. He showed himself up as a philistine. Turnbull was the only pollie who had the guts to defend Henson.

  280. Katz

    If you want to have rule of law then lawyers are indispensable.

    If you think that lawyers twist the system, then hire yourself a lawyer who doesn’t. And good luck with that.

  281. Katz

    Rudd’s grandstanding on Henson was the first indication of Rudd’s self-destructive micro-managerialism. Then came his mystifying inability to release himself from the pink batts tar baby.

    This time around the world can read the clues. Rudd won’t get a grace period. He is working without a net.

  282. Tim Macknay

    Settle down, Katz. It’s all in fun.

    (Except for the boring crap about Rudd and Abbott being psycho’s, or sociopaths, or whatever. I wish people would get over that.)

  283. Tim Macknay

    Then came his mystifying inability to release himself from the pink batts tar baby.

    That was mystifying. I remember wondering at the time why Rudd stupidly took the blame for that, instead of declaring war on dodgy contractors, which is what Howard would have done. I think that, rather than the CPRS backdown, was the beginning of the decline in Rudd 1.0’s popularity.

  284. Jumpy

    Bruce Hawker is getting Rudd to channel revenge of the nerds stereotype.
    Abbott responds with” your challenge, my venue ” either in a campaign or in parliament .
    Rudd has yet not responded.

  285. Sam

    Rudd’s grandstanding on Henson was the first indication of Rudd’s self-destructive micro-managerialism.

    The first instance was on Day 1 of his government when he insisted that every ministerial staffer be approved by his office.

  286. alfred venison

    “If you want to have rule of law then lawyers are indispensable.”
    sure, like that much vaunted consitutional lawyer barak obama?
    depends on the lawyer doesn’t it.

  287. Jumpy

    Liz

    Ms Gillard said child protection was primarily a matter for the states and did not indicate the federal government would be taking action over the incident, although she said governments were working on a national child protection framework. She criticised Henson’s nude photographs, which were removed from an art gallery earlier this year but later returned.

    I found the images disturbing, I was very concerned about them,” she said.

    Ms Gillard sought to attack federal opposition leader Malcolm Turnbull over comments he made earlier in the year in relation to the Henson issue, in defence of artistic freedom.
    http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/gillard-shocked-by-visit/2008/10/05/1223145154825.html

    Your conflicting biases make most of your arguments untenable.

  288. Katz

    Yep, lawyers are a necessary, though not sufficient, component of a workable rule of law.

  289. Jumpy

    Thistle never see the light of day but it seems the library nerd ( and fellow working class hero) have a modest hovel to sell .
    Got $2,225,000 ?
    I wouldn’t have mentioned it ( competition and all that ) but it’s just out of my range.

  290. Nick

    Rudd’s grandstanding on Henson was the first indication of Rudd’s self-destructive micro-managerialism.

    Katz, probably more an early indication of Rudd’s propensity for making populist gaffes. He hadn’t learnt yet to shut his mouth. Gillard would make a similar mistake of course when she declared Assange guilty of breaking US laws.

  291. Sam

    Q. Why do sharks never attack lawyers?

    A. Professional courtesy.

  292. Tim Macknay

    It’s unfortunately true that many of the lawyers who make it to Parliament don’t necessarily reflect well on the profession. George Brandis springs to mind…

  293. GregM

    alfred [email protected]:

    everyone’s ehard of einstein. but einsten couldn’t get his head around quantum mechanics, though, he couldn’t pull away & get an alternative view on that. “god does not play dice with the universe”. -a.v.

    So true alfred. As a result of his inadequacies we had to wait for the definitive paper on gravity “Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity”, by Sokal A, published in that august theoretical physics journal Social Text in 1996.

    As you will well recall, contra Einstein, and all other theoretical physicists before and since, Sokal demonstrated that quantum gravity is in fact a social and linguistic construct.

    Respect for sociology as a serious discipline increased in spades as a result of the publication of that speculative, adventurous and exploratory piece of work.

    Didn’t it?

  294. alfred venison

    have you ever seen or read “social text”? its an academic journal of postmodern cultural studies. its not a sociology journal and it certainly isn’t a theoretical physics journal . sokal’s article would not have got past the referees of a theoretical physics journal. the point was that it could get past the referees of a postmodern cultural studies journal.

    have you read sokal’s article? i read it when it came out, the whole thing, its a hilarious parody of the post modernist “text”, the tortured syntax, the empty rhetoric. no wonder it passed the postmodern cultural studies referees. its doubtful whether they actually read it or, if they did, understood it.

    respect for post modernism was rightly buffeted in the wake of l’affaire sokal. i don’t recall it had any effect on sociology.

    ” akn, are you saying at 258 that scientists and engineers don’t pull away and get an alternative view? Have you ever heard of this guy called Albert Einstein? ”

    why do you think its a put down of einstein to acknowledge he was unable, for all his brilliance, to pull away enough to get quantum mechanics? -a.v.

  295. Russell

    “George Brandis springs to mind…”

    I’d rather he didn’t. But it makes you think …. who was the worst Attorney-General we ever had, Philip Ruddock? Daryl Williams? The new boy’s not looking too good. I quite liked Greg Barn’s admonition ‘he should know better’ ‘he’s prepared to trash the rule of law” etc

  296. faustusnotes

    why do you think its a put down of einstein to acknowledge he was unable, for all his brilliance, to pull away enough to get quantum mechanics?

    Do you realize how self-defeating it is for your theory of uncreative scientists to quote quantum mechanics? Given how creative an effort it is?

    The reason it’s a put down is because his work on relativity and the photo-electric effect was a brilliant creative, free-thinking effort which required a huge effort to “pull away” (what toss!) from established norms. The fact that he couldn’t do this in every single facet of his intellectual life doesn’t make him uncreative or incapable of alternative ways of thinking. It’s called a “human failing.” Insulting one of the centuries greatest scientific creators for not being right 100% of the time is weak. Also, at the time he said “god doesn’t play dice with the universe” QM wasn’t accepted universally and a lot of people were disputing it. People were pulling in all sorts of directions. That’s called “debate” in the sciences. Do you guys have that?

    For other examples of “pulling away” (sounds like a bad soggy-sao move), consider the Michelson-Morley experiment that disproved the existence of the aether; or for that matter the aether theory itself as a clever way to reconcile different problems; (my personal favourite) Bell’s inequality; or the (much-underrated) Millikan Oil Drop Experiment that showed through a simple electro-static apparatus that the universe contains a fundamental unit of charge.

    But we don’t need to look any further than this thread to see an example of the genius creativity of sociology. akn, our resident sociologist, when challenged about the quality of his cited study, responded by raising the stereotype of the scientist as uncreative. Brilliant lateral thinking there! Even a thuggish kickboxer like me can see the smarts in that!

  297. Luxxe

    Tim Mackney @ 283:
    “That was mystifying. I remember wondering at the time why Rudd stupidly took the blame for that, instead of declaring war on dodgy contractors…”

    They simply couldn’t, because the department had stuffed up so monumentally with its lack of preparation, risk mitigation and oversight.

  298. Russell

    ” Even a thuggish kickboxer like me ”

    We’ll be reading closely …. no signs of dementia pugilistica, yet.

  299. faustusnotes

    Luxxe et al: the pink batts program was a success. It had lower rates of mortality and fires than the period before the program. This is well established. What mystifies me is that no one in the higher echelons of government figured it out. It was possum comitatus I think who showed it. Pathetic.

  300. Brian

    You are right, fn, Possum here, or as Mark noted here:

    some actual numbers suggesting that far from the insulation program being the cause of a dramatic increase in hell, fire and brimstone breaking out in the nations ceilings, it actually reduced the rate of installation caused fires. Yes, you read that right.

    Deaths in the construction industry are so unremarkable they are often not reported. But if people die in ceilings funded by the government…

    Nevertheless Rudd has apologized unreservedly.

    BTW Nicholas Stuart’s book Rudd’s Way reckons Garrett wrote to Rudd four times warning of the dangers, but Rudd had an inbasket problem and failed to reply while demanding that the program be implemented post haste. Then when the shit hit the fan Rudd dumped on Garrett and brought Combet in to clean up.

    It’s not a surprise that Garrett won’t work for Rudd again.

  301. Brian

    Sam @ 271 and Liz, I don’t think it’s fair to call Rudd a sociopath. I recall his concession speech when he spoke about the need for regional cancer centres (item 11 here) how genuinely concerned he was. Then there was his speech in apology to the stolen generation, which I understand he wrote entirely himself.

  302. Paul Norton

    A Facebook friend has commented on the resemblance between the Prime Minister and the late John Denver, prompting me to compose the following:

    You fill up my senses
    Like a shaking sauce bottle
    Like a strip joint in New York
    Like an ear full of wax
    Like an airborne foulmouthed rant
    Like a leak to big Laurie
    You fill up my senses
    Now I need Aropax.

  303. alfred venison

    ” akn, our resident sociologist, when challenged about the quality of his cited study, responded by raising the stereotype of the scientist as uncreative. ”

    he referred to “the engineer’s view of sociology” & suggested c. wright mills as an antidote.

    i don’t have a theory.

    what’s your problem with sociology anyway?

  304. adrian

    Settle down, Katz. It’s all in fun.

    (Except for the boring crap about Rudd and Abbott being psycho’s, or sociopaths, or whatever. I wish people would get over that.)

    Agreed, but you’d better not head over to Poll Bludger where the looney amateur psychologists seem to have taken over the asylum.

  305. akn

    fn @ 274: I wasn’t saying anything at all about scientists or engineers. I was pointing to the seminal sociological work of Mills in order to explain the role of imagination in sociology.

    There’s been a long debate over whether or not the social sciences are sciences at all. Sometimes they are, sometimes not. In any event, if you’re aware of the work of Chalmers, Kuhn and Feyerabend (all old hat now) there is no settlement over exactly what constitutes scientific method which leaves the social sciences as free to develop new methods as any of the natural sciences.

    If you are interested in the concept of hegemonic masculinity you could look at the work of Raewyn Connell who developed the idea along with that of the patriarchal dividend. In relation to hegemonic masculinity Connell posits a range of masculinities, some more subordinate than others, which all must orient themselves to the hegemonic form of masculinity. So my comment about your citing of your martial arts experience was noting your own need to orient yourself to hegemonic masculinity by claiming classically male expertise in relation to controlled violence. No-one’s free of the hegemon.

  306. akn

    Liz:

    Rudd may be an arts graduate, but I remember him well calling Bill Henson’s photos revolting, in 2008. He showed himself up as a philistine. Turnbull was the only pollie who had the guts to defend Henson.

    He’s no philistine. Henson was out of order using minors for his subjects. The debate has moved on and creative artists are now much more aware of their ethical obligations in relation to minors, but I’ll happily re-engage it if you insist.

  307. Ootz

    Adrian, the appropriate term is pop psychology and psycho babble, which is very much de rigueur in the self help industry.

    This brings me to Waleed Aly’s piece in The Monthly THIS IS SERIOUS – Inside the mind of Tony Abbott. A well researched and in-depth essay on, what increasingly looks like, our future Prime Minister and, by extension, what his Government may hold in store for our Nation.

    As David Marr’s in Quarterly Essay, Waleed makes the distinction between the “Values Abbott” and “Politics Abbott”, arguing that as leader he would be a “straightforward” conservative pragmatist. In Abbott’s own words ” … ideologues want to impose their values on others. Pragmatists want to solve others’ problems as long as the cure is not worse than the disease.” and “As an ambitious politician, I have never had the slightest intention of becoming a moral campaigner,” in Battlelines. In fact this makes sense of Peter van Onselen comment recently in The Australian , that “Abbott looks set to become a do-nothing PM,”

    In summary Waleed confirms my own suspicion that a TA Government wont be as reactionary as many think, more like a Howard lite version, just more divisive and very much guided by common popular sentiments. As the saying goes, in a democracy we get the politicians we deserve.

  308. Liz

    Akn, I’m so not interested in re-arguing Henson. Especially with you, who I remember, revealed themselves to be another philistine.

  309. Nick

    “A well researched and in-depth essay on, what increasingly looks like, our future Prime Minister”

    Well, maybe until a week or so ago.

  310. akn

    Well Liz it would help if you left off the name calling then, wouldn’t it?

    Otherwise I’ll need to reprise my arguments as to why Henson was in the wrong and I’ll do so from the specific view point of view of a victim of child sexual abuse; and all to disprove your (fighting) allegation that I’m a philistine.

    When it comes to the visual arts I’ll nominate Fiona Hall as Australia’s current, outstanding artist. Who is your preference?

  311. Tim Macknay

    Agreed, but you’d better not head over to Poll Bludger where the looney amateur psychologists seem to have taken over the asylum.

    Adrian, it’s been a few years since I bothered to read the comment threads at Poll Bludger – thanks for the added disincentive!

  312. Terry

    It may be time for a new thread here

  313. Su

    Paul Norton, that made my week.

  314. Tim Macknay

    [email protected]

    …. who was the worst Attorney-General we ever had, Philip Ruddock? Daryl Williams?

    I’d nominate whoever was Attorney- General during Menzies’ push to ban the Communist Party. I’m trying to think of a more egregious attack on democracy and civil liberty by an Australian government, but that one takes the cake.

  315. Paul Norton
  316. alfred venison

    i’d welcome your take on the henson exhibition, akn, if/when you’re provoked enough to bother replying to the philistine barb. better save it for the next thread, though, this one’s close to closing. relevance? arts policy. -a.v.

  317. Russell

    Tim it looks like the record will be safe with Sir John:

    “One of his first tasks was to draft a bill banning the Communist Party of Australia. The legislation was subsequently declared unconstitutional by the High Court of Australia. In 1952 Spicer drafted an official secrets bill which provided the option of the death penalty for spying … he insisted that a separate file be kept for each potential internee, a decision which consumed ‘huge amounts of ASIO time’ … He also presided over inquiries into naval and air disasters, most notably the royal commission in 1964 into the sinking of H.M.A.S. Voyager. Spicer found that officers in both the Voyager and the Melbourne had been at fault. A second royal commission in 1967-68 heard fresh evidence and absolved the Melbourne’s officers of any blame.”

  318. faustusnotes

    akn:

    my comment about your citing of your martial arts experience was noting your own need to orient yourself to hegemonic masculinity by claiming classically male expertise in relation to controlled violence

    you were talking about a context-specific example of mysogny. In order to contest this I also, obviously, need to provide a (different) context-specific example of misogyny. So I cited my own. This isn’t “orienting myself to hegemonic masculinity,” it’s “giving an example,” and since an example is essential to rebut your point, it would be impossible for any man to answer your point without falling afoul of this cheap sociological gotcha. Do you even read what you write?

  319. faustusnotes

    Ootz quotes Abbot:

    As an ambitious politician, I have never had the slightest intention of becoming a moral campaigner

    This is a classic example of Abbot the liar. Look at his behavior on RU486. He is a values politician.

    Furthermore, we should all be very, very scared of politicians without values.

  320. Russell

    .. and even more scared of a politician who puts ego ahead of values?

  321. Ootz

    Russel, are you referring to Rudd or Abbott?

  322. Tim Macknay

    Russell @317: ye gods.

  323. Ootz

    [email protected] I think the point Aly was making is, that Abbott, as a pragmatist, will follow what he thinks are popular conservative sentiments. See The Conversation RU486 hits Abbott – again

    On Friday Abbott was asked, in the context of RU486 being headed for the PBS, whether there was anything a Coalition government would do differently in that process.

    “Essentially no”, he said. “When I was the health minister we invariably took the advice of our professional advisers when it came to the safety and the efficacy of drugs.”

    Asked whether he was under pressure from groups, he said: “Look, I understand that there are lots of people who are concerned to try to ensure that we have a humane society which deals decently with women who are in a very difficult position.

    As such, I tend to agree with the conclusion of the above article

    Abortion is mainly a state law matter. The Commonwealth comes in on Medicare funding and PBS drugs. The chances of Abbott as PM disturbing either would seem minimal – he would be bound by undertakings not to do so, to say nothing of the attitudes of colleagues. But the issue is dangerous for him because it can be used to reinforce the anti-women profile the government is trying to construct.

  324. Russell

    OOtz I was referring to Rudd (I share Mark Latham’s verdict), but I see your point!

    In the event of an LNP win I was planning on consoling myself with the pleasure of seeing the demise of Gary Gray. But I’ll feel the same about Rudd, and the irrelevance of Jacinta Collins, in opposition.

  325. faustusnotes

    Abbott’s lying.

  326. David Irving (no relation)

    That’s pretty much a given every time Abbott opens his mouth, faustusnotes, but yes, particularly in this case. I think Aly is naive to think of Abbott as a conservative, and anyone could pull the wool over Grattan’s eyes – she’s a fool.

  327. Ootz

    Of course he does fn, show me a politician who doesn’t.

    What I am interested in is how their lying is going to affect us. In his mid term I predicted that Howard’s Prime Ministership will go down in history as a period of lost opportunities. Now I predict the potential Howard lite to follow suit. The only difference is Howard was reigning through a massive mining boom and his divisiveness took awhile to catch up with him.

  328. akn

    fn:

    This isn’t “orienting myself to hegemonic masculinity …

    Yes it is. You’re wrong

    And that understanding is a perfectly good example of how the humanities work to produce knowledge – in this case psychoanalytic knowledge engaged with sociology.

  329. faustusnotes

    akn, if reporting your experience of macho behavior is “orienting yourself to hegemonic masculinity” then the phrase “orienting yourself” is devoid of meaning.

    Also, psychoanalysis ? really? You psychoanalyzed me because I reported an experience?

  330. akn

    I didn’t psychoanalyze you personally, Yossarian, I applied metatheoretical understanding to whole categories of social behaviour according to particular criteria and understood your claim in terms of those whole categories of such behaviour from men and women. These are discernable patterns of behaviour that have been checked by observation, natural sciences style.

  331. faustusnotes

    you mean, when I revealed my experience of kickboxing you stereotyped me as a thug.

  332. akn

    Like I said, don’t take it personally.

    And no, it is not thuggish to have expertise in what I described as ‘controlled violence’. There are many such forms in sport. The point is that all those forms, and many other embodied expressions of masculinity, are all in some way arrayed around one of the pillars of hegemonic masculinity which is dominance and usually exclusive control over violence.

  333. Jumpy

    akn, fn,
    Either put some bricks in those handbags your swinging around or get back to politics.
    Also the metaphorical hair pulling and personal insult nail scratching should cease.

  334. GregM

    Noam Chomsky on theory (and metatheory):

    What you’re referring to is what’s called “theory.” And when I said I’m not interested in theory, what I meant is, I’m not interested in posturing–using fancy terms like polysyllables and pretending you have a theory when you have no theory whatsoever. So there’s no theory in any of this stuff, not in the sense of theory that anyone is familiar with in the sciences or any other serious field. Try to find in all of the work you mentioned some principles from which you can deduce conclusions, empirically testable propositions where it all goes beyond the level of something you can explain in five minutes to a twelve-year-old. See if you can find that when the fancy words are decoded. I can’t. So I’m not interested in that kind of posturing.

    Anthony on faustusnotes:

    I didn’t psychoanalyze you personally, Yossarian, I applied metatheoretical understanding to whole categories of social behaviour according to particular criteria and understood your claim in terms of those whole categories of such behaviour from men and women. These are discernable patterns of behaviour that have been checked by observation, natural sciences style.

    Chomsky was speaking of Slavoj Žižek specifically but I think his general point covers you nicely as well Anthony.

    Not that he wouldn’t like you. He liked Lacan.

    Jacques Lacan I actually knew. I kind of liked him. We had meetings every once in awhile. But quite frankly I thought he was a total charlatan. He was just posturing for the television cameras in the way many Paris intellectuals do.

    http://www.openculture.com/2013/06/noam_chomsky_slams_zizek_and_lacan_empty_posturing.html

  335. tigtog