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110 responses to “Overflow Thread”

  1. Jumpy

    That is I’ll probably be the first to be off topic on an Overflow tread even though I’m the first.
    The Hottest Place on Earth
    Also…….. *1st*…….

  2. faustusnotes

    For those interested in samurai shenanigans, I’ve put up a review of the Nomaoi festival that I attended on the weekend in Minamisoma, Fukushima (in the radiation-affected area).

  3. tigtog

    fn, I suspect more people might see that if it goes on the Open thread, or even better Lazy Sunday. I’m sure that many readers avoid the Overflow threads because this is where zombie stoushes are sent to shamble (this sequestering so that folks can avoid the shambling is an intended feature, I might add – not an inadvertent bug).

  4. Ambigulous

    Latest ALP tactics: disObeidience

  5. Zabeel the Horse

    Ut’s moi twinty-sivinth birthday today. Yuppee! End heppy birthday to all the horsiz thet are readung thus.

  6. jules

    Ambigulous – I just came in and heard Tony Abbott re the NSW ICAC stuff.

    “They must be punished.”

    Not just the criminals but everyone must be hunted down, rooted out and punished.

    Punished I say!!

    Scary stuff actually. The relish he said it with was disturbing.

  7. Ambigulous

    Oh dear, jules.

    There was an unfortunate misunderstanding on HMS Menzies some years ago when Midshipman Abbott tried to organise a Sunday gathering for penance.

    Crew members came along carrying pennants, which irked him mightily.

  8. jules

    Ha. I’ll bet it did.

  9. jules

    From his home page:


    I think that’s a very fair question that you raise because I think it is important that the guilty parties are punished. It is very important that the people who have corrupted New South Wales are identified, are prosecuted and are punished. The punishment has to take place at all sorts of levels. There’s criminal charging and punishment that takes place for people who have been individually guilty of crimes. But, Kevin Rudd and the Labor Party can’t be allowed to get off scot-free here. Mr Rudd is asking for a pardon before he has done his pennants. The only way to properly punish the Labor Party for the corruption which has entered its heart and soul is to put it into Opposition, not just in Sydney but in Canberra too.

    Thank you.

    I wonder what his favorite comic is.

  10. Graham Bell

    Happy birthday Zabeel – and hayppy birthday to all the horsies. 🙂

  11. Jungey

    In reply to a question on the asylum seekers rountable regarding the Dalai Lama’s attitude to women and gays it appears to be the case that he has progressive views on both subjects:

    In his discussions of the traditional Buddhist view on appropriate sexual behavior, he explains the concept of “right organ in the right object at the right time,” which historically has been interpreted as indicating that oral, manual and anal sex (both homosexual and heterosexual) are not appropriate in Buddhism or for Buddhists, yet he also says that in modern times all common, consensual sexual practices that do not cause harm to others are ethically acceptable and that society should not discriminate against gays and lesbians and should accept and respect them from a secular point of view.[73] In a 1994 interview with OUT Magazine, the Dalai Lama clarified his personal opinion on the matter by saying, “If someone comes to me and asks whether homosexuality is okay or not, I will ask ‘What is your companion’s opinion?’. If you both agree, then I think I would say, ‘If two males or two females voluntarily agree to have mutual satisfaction without further implication of harming others, then it is okay.'”[74]

    In his 1996 book Beyond Dogma, he described a traditional Buddhist definition of an appropriate sexual act as follows: “A sexual act is deemed proper when the couples use the organs intended for sexual intercourse and nothing else… Homosexuality, whether it is between men or between women, is not improper in itself. What is improper is the use of organs already defined as inappropriate for sexual contact.”[75] He elaborated in 1997, explaining that the basis of that teaching was unknown to him. He also conveyed his own “willingness to consider the possibility that some of the teachings may be specific to a particular cultural and historic context.

    In relation to women he has said:

    On gender equality and sexism, the Dalai Lama proclaimed at the National Civil Rights Museum in Memphis, Tennessee in 2009: “I call myself a feminist. Isn’t that what you call someone who fights for women’s rights?

    The Dalai Lama is not the international leader of Buddhists in general. He has taken immense steps to modernise Buddhism especially in through his engagement with Western neuroscientists.

    The Gautama Buddha was the second leader of any spiritual order, after the Jains, to welcome women into the order. This happened some 2,500 years ago. Since then monasticism, dominated by men, has sidelined women although this is changing as traditional Buddhism undergoes a renaissance through its engagement with the West and Western expectations of gender equalitarianism.

    Other than that he is regarded by many Buddhists in the west as an international cottage industry. Nevertheless, he appears to have achieved his purpose of promoting a particular form of Buddhism as well as bringing attention to the plight of the Tibetans under totalitarian CCP rule. Most importantly, he has succeeded in promoting the benefits of morally bounded meditation.

    This does not mean that meditation cannot fail nor does it mean that it is unimpeachable. The S?t? Zen support for and provision of training for kamikaze pilots during WWII is widely regarded as a significant departure from the dharma.

  12. Jungney

    To Su @ here on election thread:

    You’re certainly right about childcare being the ground zero of unpaid labour and the expectation that women will have to do it anyway. You may be able, then, to imagine my surprise when, while in the middle of a defacto property relationship dispute with mother of my two children, I learned that I had taken major responsibility for the care and welfare of my children ‘because I chose to’. As if the care of children is optional when the other party is so committed to their professional qualifications that there is no choice but to step into the gap.

    It’s a complex world.

  13. Su

    Sure, that argument is very common amongst separating couples, Iwas on the receiving end myself. We were on the Saturday Salon thread rather than election though, but maybe this topic too political for the salon anyway. The thing about gendered work is that men who do it suffer many of the same consequences as women, that is, as I understand, the point of the term “gendered work”.

  14. Jungney

    Yes indeed. My advice to the young is to ensure that all work, paid, child care and domestic work is split down the middle, 50:50 and that there is a paper trail showing this. A sh*t situation, to be sure. It seems to me that anyone who puts themselves in the ‘woman’s position’ gets it in the neck 🙂

  15. Chris

    Jungney @ 14 – good advice and probably leads to a more balanced life for all concerned anyway. Was interested to read about your experience re: property settlement. Perhaps it works differently for defactos, but when getting divorced it didn’t seem to matter why there was disparity in incomes (or earning potential) when there are children involved, just that there was and that would affect the property split. With the lower the earning potential the higher the proportion of the assets the person is entitled to. Similarly with care of children, the greater the proportion of care post-divorce, the higher the proportion of assets you get.

  16. Jungney

    Chris: the de facto property relationship act is, or was anyway, a total nightmare. Marriage is a better option for equitable distribution in the event of separation. It’s one of the reasons I support g&l etc marriage rights.

  17. Mindy

    I think this is fitting for an overflow thread: a US cable about Kevin Rudd’s management style.

    The US cable that said that Gillard was gunning for Rudd’s spot early on has been used as gospel truth about ‘Juliar’ on many threads now. So it seems only fair that this article about the cable about Kevin Rudd’s management style should get its own run.

    So you see many of the things that I and others have pointed out as issues with RuddMk1 are in this cable. Given that these cables are gospel truth then it must be true. Rudd was removed because he was an impediment to the functioning of the government. It must have been pretty bad if the US noticed it enough to put it in a cable.

  18. Casey

    Mindy, I think it is clear by now the guy is huge on grandiose policy announcements and light on policy implementation. Moz asked me if I could honestly say that I disliked both leaders/parties? equally enough to vote informal. Frankly, I am a bit worried about the way Rudd manages government and I have to weigh up his ineptitude (the grandiose policy announcement of the png solution replete with getting the PNG PM to sign in front of the nation like a circus performer for the colonial master was case in point – as if that policy is workable LOL OUT LOUD AGAIN) with the ideology of Abbott and the Libs. It’s hard.Very very hard.

  19. Mindy

    I have a Greens candidate running in my electorate and she will get my primary vote, although I have not traditionally voted Greens. That is the best I feel I can do. I don’t want to vote informal because I feel that if I do I give up my right to whinge about the result.

  20. Liz

    I’ve just read about Rudd’s campaigning in Hobart. I freely admit I don’t understand why Rudd is so popular and I know I’m in a minority in that I find him a really weird person and I find his faux folksy style painful.

    But, in Hobart he trotted out his old line; “Hi. I’m Kevin. I’m from Queensland. I’m from Australia and I’m here to help”.

    Why does he keep identifying he’s from Queensland? Who cares, except for other Queenslanders? How inappropriate is it when you’re campaigning to be PM of Australia?

    And why say he’s from Australia? Where else would he be from? Is he implying Tasmania isn’t in Australia? He sounds like he’s talking to a particularly dense lot of five year olds.

    What am I missing here? Is this an example of Rudd’s superior communication skills? Can anyone explain?

  21. Brian

    Liz, personally I’m not a Rudd lover. My first experience of him was when he ran premier Goss’s Dept and was known as “Doctor Death”.

    I think with the “I’m from Australia” comment you have to see the body language, which I didn’t but I’d guess it was a bit tongue in cheek. He’s acknowledging that he knows that Tasmania sometimes get left off the map and how they feel about it.

    That’s my guess.

  22. Liz

    It may come across quite differently in the flesh, Brian, as an obvious joke. But, why always reference Queensland? No-one cares outside of Queensland.

  23. Moz in Oz

    Liz, I’m waiting for a prime munster who goes round saying “Hi. I’m Sam. I’m a lesbian. I’m a Samoan from New Zealand and I’m here to help”.

    I suspect it’s actually because he has to say something, it has to be simple, it has to make a good soundbite… and he has to say it hundreds of times a week for the whole campaign.

    For me that would be nightmarish. Being “always on” for weeks on end, doing the same stupid little meet’n’greet stuff multiple times every day. I can’t understand why so few politicians go on murderous rampages.

  24. jules

    I think Rudd is actually taking the piss out of himself, cos he knows he comes across as a bit of a knobhead. Its like he’s acknowledging that and having a little laugh at it, along with everyone else. Maybe I’m giving him too much credit for being self aware, but i really think he does it deliberately so people think he’s laughing at his own wonkishness and can laugh with him instead of just at him.

    If so, or if even not – if other think that is the case – it would go a long way to explaining his popularity.

    If he makes it obvious he’s trying to be cool and failing, but he knows he is failing and doesn’t care cos its good for a laugh then that’ll go over a lot better than actually trying and failing and not realising. I genuinely get that impression from Rudd, its the only thing about him i find remotely lik un-hateable.

  25. jules

    …if other people think that is the case…

  26. Su

    Moz that coment deserves its own chorus; http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HsrVx6xbcHY&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DHsrVx6xbcHY.

    I’ll never tire of hearing that clip.

  27. Chris

    Liz @ 20 – I’d guess its one of those bits of wierdness about Rudd that he’s very well known for. Probably very annoying for those who don’t like Rudd, but perhaps serves as a way of connecting him to his audience and reminding people of the Rudd of 2007 when they loved him.

  28. Liz

    I guess it must be right that people see it as a bit of cute, taking the piss out of yourself schtick. Is it wise to recycle your lines from 2007? Maybe. As I said, I just don’t get the whole thing.

  29. alfred venison

    the diplomatic cables are primary sources. articles like cassidy’s are secondary sources. training in history has conditioned me to prefer primary sources whenever they’re available.

    as usual with the main stream media on many topics of interest there is no link to the document on which the article is based.

    we are invited thereby without the opportunity of independent corroboration to take the word of a man who quotes andrew bolt that his précis has left out nothing which might conflict with his conclusion. -a.v.

  30. Moz in Oz

    Su, that still quite literally brings a tear to my eye. It’s one reason why I support Australia officially becoming the West Island of New Zealand.

  31. Ambigulous

    An outstanding rendition of Pokarekareana.
    Thank you.

  32. Mindy

    Wikileaks has released all the cables a.v. I’m sure you could find them if you looked. But then you might have to admit that I am right.

  33. Paul Norton

    Some of my primary school classmates would sing:

    I found a squashed banana
    I threw it at the teacher
    And it made her cry

    I think they missed the point of it somewhat.

  34. Helen

    Our version:

    I had a squashed banana
    I threw it at the teacher
    And I ran a- ran a- way

    The teacher said “Come here”
    I said “no fear”
    … What comes after that? Anyone?

  35. Casey

    Huh? The wikileaks stuff on Rudd was all over the news everywhere at the time, what’s not to believe?


  36. jules

    This is the wikileaks page for searching those diplomatic cables.

    In theory you should be able to easily search it for the actual documents that mention Rudd.

    Right now I can’t access it at all. Is it blocked in Australia?

    Clicking on the wikileaks link in the article Casey linked tells me the DNS is prohibited.

    What a mild pain in the neck.

  37. Mindy

    Anyway, what I would like to know is given that there is highly likely to have been cables regarding the Opposition sent by the Embassy back to the US why none of those have been leaked.

  38. Casey
  39. jules


  40. Casey
  41. jules

    For whatever reason i couldn’t get onto the search site via wikileaks, but casey’s powers were more than enough.

    This is from 2009 and seems like its from a parallel universe, but we were all there …

    Opposition Melts Down Over Climate Change

    SBU) SUMMARY: The Opposition Liberal Party is in turmoil after an unprecedented revolt against leader Malcolm Turnbull and his decision to support the Government’s climate change legislation. A Liberal party leadership ballot will be held on Monday. Malcolm Turnbull’s decision to back the government’s emissions trading scheme has deeply divided the Liberal party, causing Tony Abbott – from the party’s right – to put his hand up. Some of Turnbull’s supporters are pressuring him to resign so that fellow moderate Joe Hockey – who insists he won’t challenge Turnbull – can take over. The Right is amenable to Hockey provided he makes concessions on the ETS. The majority view is that Hockey will succeed Turnbull however Turnbull insists he’s not resigning. This public meltdown is likely to leave deep scars within the Liberals and further reinforces the consensus that Prime Minister Kevin Rudd is primed for victory in the next election, which is likely to be sometime in 2010. END SUMMARY.

    Well they sure got that right.

  42. GregM

    Anyway, what I would like to know is given that there is highly likely to have been cables regarding the Opposition sent by the Embassy back to the US why none of those have been leaked.

    You’d have to ask Bradley Manning that.

  43. Casey

    Mindy there is stuff there, in cablegate on the Libs but not as much:


  44. j_p_z

    @Liz #20 — I don’t know much about Rudd but I can tell you a thing or two about rhetoric. Rudd’s line “I’m from Australia and I’m here to help” is clearly a joking gloss on a famous quip uttered by Ronald Reagan. Rudd obviously knows the original line but why he thought a 30-year-old joke made by an American would connect in Tasmania just goes to show what a wonk he is. His point was actually very subtle, in fact too subtle (I could explain the subtext of what he specifically meant but it might get tedious.)

    The “I’m from Queensland” line is obviously intended to make him appear more like a regular guy and less like a space alien; it’s the opposite of saying “I’m from the Department of Political Science at the University of Melbourne.”

    Obama had the same problem, he hails from Hawaii, Indonesia and Harvard, and so there’s a quasi-sense that he isn’t really an American (I’d say more of a Martian frankly), so on the stump he kept hitting on how his mother was from Kansas. It’s an old trick, and not as subtle as the other line.

  45. jules

    Wow. Reading that report on Gillard is an eye opener isn’t it.

    For all the crap policies her govt had she was definitely a much better option than the two we have now. That report kind of resonates with how I saw some of her PMship. She was a star performer in parliament, clearly had incredible management skills to pull off a hung parliament with such success, and history will remember that parliament as important and groundbreaking for a number of reasons. It’ll probably forget the stuff I personally didn’t like too. Clearly inspired loyalty in some of the people associated with her government. yeah Ron Oakeshott’s little comment was interesting. Funny thing is those reports would probably have ended up accurate if Rupert Murdoch wasn’t Cthulu.

  46. jules

    Ron who?

  47. Mindy

    Thanks Casey

  48. Katz

    And Bradley Manning will spend a million years in Leavenworth for that dross.

  49. Su

    j_p_z , you will remember his mania for the idea of primaries but had you heard that he’s hired Obama’s social media wizards? He clearly pays close attention to the mechanisms of USA-an electioneering.

  50. zorronsky

    Julia wouldn’t have needed notes….

  51. Casey

    Gillard would have pummelled him. From that wikileaks cable on Gillard’s performance in Parliament:

    She is a superior debater to Rudd, who gets bogged down in bureaucratic jargon and tends to speak for too long. In Parliamentary Question Time, it is evident that ALP MPs enjoy hearing Gillard more
    than Rudd. She enjoys taunting the Opposition but, as one
    Qthan Rudd. She enjoys taunting the Opposition but, as one
    journalist noted, “the only problem is getting her off the
    corpse.” Late last year, in a widely publicized exchange,
    Gillard pummeled Deputy Opposition Leader Julie Bishop (who
    was under pressure in a Treasury portfolio she has since
    relinquished). Opposition Leader Malcolm Turnbull later
    described Gillard as “very nasty” and “vicious.” A visiting
    U.S. political scientist noted after watching Question Time
    that the Opposition normally heckled Government speakers but
    in stark contrast, they were completely silent when Gillard

    Isn’t it amazing how women get called vicious and nasty all the time, when they are in fact good debaters?

  52. Biff

    Isn’t it amazing how women get called vicious and nasty all the time, when they are in fact good debaters?

    Yes, that cracked me up too. (And note what a stark contrast that comment is to almost everything else in the report.) It’s now very clear to me, although I wish it were not, that to some men, any questioning of any man by any woman is by definition nasty and vicious, much less the winning of a debating point or two, and as for actual stoushes …

  53. Chris

    Question time hasn’t even been vaguely related to debating for a while now! I missed the debate last night, but the Carr vs Bishop debate last week was what I’d consider a debate – people actually vaguely answered the questions rather than the question they wanted to be asked, no outrageous dorothy dixers and the participants and audience were civil – no stupid insults.

  54. Casey

    She really was a superior debater as per her very famous misogyny speech when she sewed up Abbott in question time and which made international headlines. If only I could be so nasty I’d be a happy woman.

  55. Rocky

    You feminists! Why are you still talking about this? You’re just dragging this blog down with your irrelevant ideology. We’ve all moved on, don’t you know. Misogyny is so 2012.

  56. Casey

    Liz you should do that post!

  57. Biff

    You feminists! Why are you still talking about this? You’re just dragging this blog down with your irrelevant ideology. We’ve all moved on, don’t you know. Misogyny is so 2012.

    Yes, and what’s more my ex-partner is being a bitch, and a woman answered me back once, and a feminist frightened my mother when she was pregnant with me. So that proves I am right.

  58. zorronsky

    Su @ 26
    Reminds me of the night 60 odd years ago when some Maori sailors smuggled me aboard the Pukeko, Ukeleles and much singing, great memories.

  59. Brian

    FWIW, I was thinking the same as zorronsky. Gillard wouldn’t have needed notes, would have had a better grasp of what the Govt had been doing lately, and I think would not have missed some of the opportunities Rudd missed.

    Andrew Leigh talking soon after the leadership change said that Gillard had the best brain he had encountered in terms of processing power, quick, access to memory, able to make connections, I can’t recall his exact words. He’d only met one other that compared – Bill Clinton’s.

  60. Su

    Isn’t it amazing also, that those famously emotive women don’t go around sobbing to all and sundry about their shocking mistreatment even when they’ve been egregiously misrepresented. You could not get a more succinct and forbearing summary than Gillards;

    I want to just say a few remarks about being the first woman to serve in this position. There’s been a lot of analysis about the so-called gender wars, me playing the so-called gender card because heavens knows no-one noticed I was a woman until I raised it.

    But against that background, I do want to say about all of these issues, the reaction to being the first female prime minister does not explain everything about my prime ministership, nor does it explain nothing about my prime ministership.

    I’ve been a little bit bemused by those colleagues in the newspapers who have admitted that I have suffered more pressure as a result of my gender than other prime ministers in the past but then concluded that it had zero effect on my political position or the political position of the Labor Party.

    It doesn’t explain everything, it doesn’t explain nothing, it explains some things. And it is for the nation to think in a sophisticated way about those shades of grey.

    We’re bemused too, by that and by the brociliasts campigning to erase that little bit of history, I do love it when she says “because heaven knows no-one noticed I was a woman until I raised it”.

  61. Moz of Yaramulla

    [email protected]: I assumed that had to be satire.

    Interesting hearing about the debate in the office this morning. It does seem to have been fairly neutral in content, at least insofar as the people who watched it are mostly “I told you {my party} would win it. The other guy was lame”. The whole “they cheated” “he’s got no depth, just cliches” wah wah. Although Abbotts proposed micromanagement of aged care does seem to have everyone perplexed.

  62. Brian

    Casey @ 51, I’ve got a link somewhere to an article where a body language expert gave a review of the 2010 leadership debate. Gillard was clearly the better, according to him. IIRC he said Gillard’s speech, hand movement etc reflected what she actually felt/thought, whereas with Abbott there was a dissonance between his inner and outer worlds. His performances these days are an even more well-groomed act.

    That was 2 or 3 days before the second leak which produced that photo-shopped photo of ‘old Julia’ and negative press across the board. Anne Summers said that cost Gillard seven points in personal approval which she never regained.

  63. Liz

    Yes, Su. It was an elegant, composed and witty speech. Very typical of Gillard. She also urged her supporters to get behind Rudd and support Labor at her party that night. Very different that you know who.

  64. Liz

    I’m thinking about that Casey. But, I’m also thinking about my huge ‘to do’ list which I’m obviously procrastinating about now.

  65. Brian

    Su @ 60, I want to make it clear that I have never sought to “erase that little bit of history”. The question has been whether the “so-called gender wars” were the main, the most important or the only cause of what happened. It’s clear that they were significant and no-one can reasonably argue otherwise.

    Gillard called for “the nation to think in a sophisticated way about those shades of grey.” As far as I can see that hasn’t begun, here or anywhere else. On reflection I made a couple of mis-steps that didn’t help and tried to advocate some ideas that I thought might help which I should have saved for a different day and differently contextualised, since they weren’t intrinsically related to feminism.

    In looking back at some of the conversations on the blog around the leadership change in 2010, on the whole they seemed to me respectful, based on the interchange of information and ideas and were productive in increasing understanding.

  66. Biff

    [email protected]: I assumed that had to be satire.

    Yes indeed it was, I was just joining in.

  67. Casey

    As far as I can see that hasn’t begun, here or anywhere else.

    Brian, I don’t know about you but I’ve been thinking thinking thinking in a very sophisticated way about how sexism worked with the first PM. So have a lot of feminists. It has occurred to me that one of the reasons there have been complaints on this blog regarding the rise of anti feminist sentiments we see about the place (a sledge at ‘militant feminism’ was one such comment I remember in response to something very mild) is that there used to actually be posts, not so long ago, which addressed feminist issues. Of course then we’d get some folk on those threads saying they gave up on feminism because once something happened and a woman was not nice to them or whatever, but there was a sense that the blog was in itself identifying as feminist by the nature of the posts. I suggest that if we started seeing more of those posts on this blog this place would get its balance back and there would be some good times to be had here. A lot of the cultural type posts have fallen by the wayside too, which is a shame – there was some levity to be had on those threads as well as things to be learnt. So I can only say, Liz, procrastinate by writing a post!

    Here is my view: There were legitimate criticisms to be made regarding Gillard’s conservative policy decisions, indeed there were, but the default position for many men (and women) would be to conduct those critiques by defaulting to sexist tropes and out and out misogyny. Of course, for her ideological enemies that was also choice no. 1. For me as a feminist, it became nigh impossible to discuss any criticism of Gillard without it inevitably heading into sexist territory here, there and everywhere, even on her own Facebook page I remember – it was terrible to see some of the stuff written there. The result of that was any legit exploration of Gillard’s policy missteps descended very quickly into a stoush on whether someone had been sexist or not. This made feminists, me included, very unwilling to offer any criticism because that’s what would happen. Added to that, the level of misogyny that flared during her prime ministership was frightening to many of us who did not think it was quite that bad. What made it worse was that a lot of men missed, or dismissed it, or thought feminists were using it as an excuse or whatever. For us, it took a woman in power to let us know it was as bad as ever and it was a matter of despair. I remember the menu thing as one of my worst days as a woman. What on earth are we saying to young women when those sorts of things happen? I would like to see some analysis of all those issues – and of course no one thought about it here, because there were no posts on it.

  68. Casey

    *first female PM

  69. Ootz

    You feminists! Why are you still talking about this? You’re just dragging this blog down with your irrelevant ideology. We’ve all moved on, don’t you know. Misogyny is so 2012.

    Moved on to where exactly?

    Ladies your help is always welcome on deck of the leaky U-Boot I am serving.

    Speaking for myself, I can handle Casey’s wicked fangs, though … hum .. as a bloke, wary about them exquisitely curated fingernails in our embrace for the common cause.

  70. Mindy

    Colleague and I were discussing how neither of us watched the debate last night and how we both would have watched a Gillard v Turnbull debate. Not necessarily about politics either, I just think they would be both very interesting on opposite sides of a debate.

    @Brian certainly I, and I think that many of the other women who comment here, remember that time differently. However, I don’t see any point in flogging that dead horse anymore I think any remaining flesh was well and truly flayed from the bones many many comments ago. So I am happy to leave that zombie stoush alone forever more if you are.

  71. faustusnotes

    Taking up Casey’s point about leftist “allies” using sexist attacks on Gillard, this strikes me as somewhat similar to the way some atheists (e.g. Dawkins) have been behaving towards Islam. They attack Islam from a racist and right-wing perspective, because they see it as useful for their short-term personal goals (attacking religion) but ignore the broader consequences of aligning atheism with a racist right-wing program. It’s seductive because they can see themselves as allied with a more acceptable “mainstream” political program and see themselves as validated in that way, but destructive in the long term because the people they are siding with will never support them.

    The same is true for the leftist men who have used sexist tropes to attack Gillard, or lined up with some of her worst critics on the right rhetorically. They will never, ever get any long-term support from those people. All they do instead is alienate their own side. It may feel good to be briefly on the same side as (what you think) is the mainstream of political thought, but if doing so means you have to jump the misogynist shark, you haven’t gained anything.

    This is also true, I think, of the ALP’s flirtation with extremist politics on immigration. The people this wins over in the short term will never ever show allegiance to the ALP, and the ALP will constantly have to offer them new horrors in the future in order to win them over. It’s better to have a principled debate than to give in to that short term hope.

    I think that’s what Gillard was aiming for in this electoral cycle. Rudd, not so much …

  72. zorronsky

    My maths at 58 slightly out. Twas 1959 in Singapore harbour and just 50 odd years ago. There, that feels better.

  73. Su

    Until the saturday salon thread Brian, I considered you extremely even-handed, my comment was not referring to you at all. You say;

    It’s clear that they were significant and no-one can reasonably argue otherwise.

    . I agree with you, completely, which is why I no longer regard Tietze, who wrote a post saying misogyny had no explanatory power with regard to Gillard’s lack of popularity, as a reasonable person, but as someone blinded by unconscious bias, he is not alone in that, something confirmed for me by comparing and contrasting May’s asylum post with those that come after Rudd took over.

    I suspect you would see a thread in which people of standing within this commenting community say that sexism doesn’t exist as an “exchange of views”. To a woman, that thread is redolent of misogyny, an attitude not merely unpleasant but ultimately deadly in its effect. Civility is not the only standard by which I judge.

  74. Casey

    Speaking for myself, I can handle Casey’s wicked fangs, though … hum .. as a bloke, wary about them exquisitely curated fingernails in our embrace for the common cause.

    Okay Ootz, I take it you want me to bite you.

    Now I know I told Greg that I would make him hot, but I stretched the truth a little because I think he would make a fine one, if I had turned him into one, if he had let me. I still can’t believe I was rejected but anyway.

    Look, the truth is: I bite you, you will become one of us.

    What I mean to say is: You will become Ootzette, Ootzina, Ootzarella.

    Now take my hand, come over here, here, look into my crystal orb, as it turns to blood, now it clears, do you see?

    Do you see how you will learn first hand how being forthright will earn you the label of ‘nasty’ and ‘vicious’? Do you see how suddenly, your words will be responsible for the mental and physical well being of your male interlocutor? No really, that’s true, that will happen. Do you see how the words of men will make you worry that perhaps you have spoken too much, too loud, to out of turn and this affects them and hurts them and they suffer? Never mind your sufferings, you will not be mentioning them, because nobody cares. Actually Ootz you don’t care either, because as a woman you argue fairly and like an adult but you will not be treated fairly, magick tricksies will abound and you will have to be on your guard at all the stunts that get pulled. I see you are confused. Look: I know, that as a man, you’d piss yourself laughing at this – but behold! (poof!) As a woman, a forthright woman, a boundaried woman, a woman who can call shit out when she sees it – it becomes possible because (poof!) you are now responsible for the wellbeing of men from the cradle to the grave and that includes upsetting them in any way, regardless of how right you are or how bleeding obvious your point is!

    Oh let the blood clear again, it has misted, there, now it has cleared: Do you now see how ‘vicious’ quickly becomes ‘laviscious’? (poof!) Indeed, your natural charming exuberance will quickly turn ‘sluttish’ if you offend your brothers (and those daughters of men who have been so moulded). It is a hard road Ootz and a silent one, only women bleed. They will mention all your boyfriends from when you were 12 Ootz, they will damn you for choices you made when you were young, regardless that they were young, regardless their mistakes – these things will be lost to the mist of time. But not yours, they will pour over yours with a mirror and specks they will make into black holes in your soul. And keep on bringing it up in the newspaper when there is nothing at all to bring up, frack off ffs.

    Sorry where was I? Oh yeah. See over there, see how you begin to judge your own looks, Ootz, look into the orb, there is much sorrow for you there. Your facial character lines, those marks that make men look so attractive – will be transformed (poof!) into crone like features which you might fix with botox if you fall into that shit. Of course if you do, you will be derided for botoxing just as much as you will if you leave yourself as time and nature, that wonton creature, has made you – beautiful. But the sons of men won’t tell you that, nor will they see Tony Abbott’s botoxed face neither.

    No: Instead you will be told that your thighs are the wrong shape and your arse – your arse Ootz – I hate to tell you that you either have one that will be too fleshy (there will too much of you, you will threaten them with the memory of maternal power), or you will have no arse at all and be completely deficient (they feel the terror of a mother’s withdrawal). They will make jokes about you, they will mention boxes and deride you, it is true Ootz. It matters little if you are a the leader of a nation, or of nothing.

    You will be diminished Ootz.

    And that will be the first hour of your life as a woman.

    Now if you still want to get bitten, invite me.

  75. Casey

    moderated [Fixed ~ Mod] [P.S. It was the spam filter I swear, please don’t hex me]

  76. Su

    Zorronosky, to have such an historic moment celebrated in inspirational fashion, in a love song, it really gave me hope for the future.

  77. Casey

    Alright then.

  78. Su

    Brava! Toasts Casey with the fay liquor meant only for libations, and never mind the time of day.

  79. Biff

    Casey at #74: we are not worthy.

  80. Brian

    su @ 73:

    I suspect you would see a thread in which people of standing within this commenting community say that sexism doesn’t exist as an “exchange of views”.

    i sincerely hope not and would point for example where I endorsed DI(nr’s) intervention, but then introduced another idea which I should have either left out or expanded. Most of comments you refer to had been called out by others before I got anywhere near the thread. Then I got embroiled in my own ‘stoush’ which I concentrated on. Since I had already indicated I personally don’t like stoushes that was dumb.

    I don’t think I’ve seen the Tietze post you refer to and don’t read a lot of his stuff. In the last three I’ve thought there were fundamental problems in the very basis of his argument and/or how he dealt with the ‘evidence’.

    I can miss stuff because I was born in 1940 and laid down habits that are not easy to eradicate entirely. I do work on it, and welcome mis-steps being drawn to my intention attention.

    One of the reasons I had to disengage, apart from that it was affecting my health, was that I felt I was being misunderstood and couldn’t see any prospect of changing that. I’d still like to clarify a few points, but not sure I’ll get to it.

    Casey, I’m on my way out the door. Hope to get back to you tonight.

  81. Russell

    Re posts on LP: I remember a post from Kim, when LP restarted, which didn’t end too well – she hasn’t been back. I would love to see posts from Kim again.

    Conditioning lasts a long time. I started Youtubing Eydie Gorme last night, then went on looking at clips from my favourite old TV shows (such fun, weren’t they?). Looked at with today’s eyes they are truly amazing

  82. Ootz

    “They will mention all your boyfriends from when you were 12 Ootz,”

    Casey, the apprentice witches fanged me even before that age, consistently. Had to wear the stigma and”diminished” for a long time. I was the one wearing glasses, wingnut ears and hiding behind books, remember? It took me along time to get the courage to look closely into that fountain in the hidden scented garden wherein a special witch introduced me to the wicket craft. No hesitation from me to donate an equitable amount of blood for the cause now. So as you can see, I can handle fangs. In fact, after four years being the token male in a coven, have been presented an honorary set of fangs, which don’t quite fit. So now you see, I have spilled some blood to wear the corresponding frock of an “Ootzette, Ootzina or Ootzarella”, and have now established a formidable garderobe for all kind of situations. Such garderobe is almost a prerequisite of post modern life and does not come easy.

    It is the bleedin scratch marks tho which kind of still irritate me, as I am more of the romantic type. You don’t have to claw me in sister, I am with you. Many of my bro’s are too, just not game enough to show it or lack the experience to do so appropriately. It is the pretentious Big Men types which are the hopeless cases, sleepwalkers who facilitate the rape and fuck up of everything and anything, not just my sisters. They just have no conscience and respect, not even of and for themselves.

  83. Casey

    Er, yes, thanks for that Ootz. I’m not really sure what the exact mechanics of your idea of a fanging may be. I At any rate, I sincerely hope that you are alright. And now I might take this moment here to gratuitously shove in a youtube video so that we can see a fanging by this right fucken bastard whom I hate very much. You might like to know that before he became an actor this utter utter bastard here, fanged me actually, and seeded me with “a millenium of wisdom, honour and life” if that makes any fucken sense. That makes about three thousand of us now this bastard has seeded. The utter utter bastard gets away with it because he uses exactly the same lines on each willing witch. And because he’s a viking. I’m sorry about the cross, believe me, he’s such a drama queen. Anyway, just so you know this is my idea of a bastard. In fact I hate him so much, do not be surprised if I put up more youtube videos of the bastard. What a bastard. I have lots of videos.

  84. Ootz

    Cheers Casey, no worries, I am alright apart from being under the weather agian and a bit vague. Look this is a long and well entrenched as well as complex problem we are addressing here. Language and meaning are very important to dismantle the problem’s morbid old paradigm. My experience in such situation, that exploration, by playful prodding and poking around the issue, with metaphors does help to loosen up ones mind to be able to perceive alternatives of how one can go about to address the core issue. It is about breaking out of the norm ‘to game’ other approaches and enabling them to break the stale mate. Hence me responding and engaging with your witches theme.

    To be clear, from early on at school I have been bullied and physically abused for sometime. Paradoxically at some stage by a group of girls. Together with my unusual religious background I was the the lowest of the low, which gave me a profound experience of discrimination and “diminishment” very early on. I do not need to be lectured on it. I find the treatment female politicians have received in this country insulting and not productive. Not just Gillard, there were a few Premier that come to my mind too. Mind you the art of public sledging does not discriminate and is often to be found even here on LP.

    I’ll cut to the chase to what I am on about. In the very first few hours of the DtJ movement, when things quickly started to escalate and some ugly scenes erupted on facebook and elsewere, I became alarmed that we may spend our powder for fireworks and not actually achieve anything productive. I sent off emails to DtJ as well as being very active on facebook, outlining that we should focus on the bullying of AJ, sent a definition thereof, and insisted we should not perpetrate the same, as it would not be productive. The leadership of the DtJ movement came to the same conclusion and the parole went out, the rest is history. It was truly amazing how focused and disciplined women and men had applied themselves on their keyboards in their thousands and with a common and well defined goal exposed and stopped to a large extend this charcter from bullying, it was a game changer. Now not that I accuse you for bullying , it is just when comments such “(female commentators here) want to drive LP into the ground” and all and sundry get the “privilege” treatment, we are on the slippery slope to a zero sum game, where all of us here will be losers.

    Perhaps we need to change the metaphor Casey, shall we dance?

  85. Casey

    h “(female commentators here) want to drive LP into the ground”

    Where? Link?

  86. Casey

    the “privilege” treatment,

    What are you referring to here?

  87. Casey

    To be clear, from early on at school I have been bullied and physically abused for sometime.

    Okay. And you are telling me this because?

  88. Katz

    I was interested in this bit:


    ¶7. (C/NF) Gillard has thrown off the baggage of being from
    what one analyst called the “notoriously anti-Israel faction”
    of the ALP. As Acting Prime Minister in late December 2008,
    Gillard was responsible for negotiating the Government’s
    position on Israel’s incursion into Gaza. Left-wing ALP MPs,
    a group to which Gillard used to belong, wanted her to take a
    harder line against Israel. Instead, she said Hamas had
    broken the ceasefire first by attacking Israel – a stance
    welcomed by Israel’s supporters in Australia. MP Michael
    Danby, one of two Jewish members of Parliament and a strong
    supporter of Israel, told us that after the Gaza statement he
    had a new appreciation of Gillard’s leadership within the ALP
    (ref B). Israeli Ambassador Yuval Rotem told us that Gillard
    has gone out of her way to build a relationship with Israel
    and that she asked him to arrange an early opportunity to
    visit. He will accompany Gillard and a delegation of
    Australian officials (including newly-appointed Minister Mark
    Arbib and Liberal Party heavyweights former Treasurer Peter
    Costello and Chris Pyne, Manager of Opposition Business in
    the House) to a meeting of the Australia-Israel Leadership
    Forum later this month.

    For Christ’s sake, was this assessment written in the interests of the US or Israel? And if the former, how can those interests be distinguished?

  89. Casey

    To be clear, from early on at school I have been bullied and physically abused for sometime.

    Because, don’t think I don’t feel for you Ootz, I do, childhood can be hard. But you seem to be mistaking ‘girls who were mean in my childhood’ for ‘feminists on LP’ or ‘feminism’ frankly.

    I mean, seriously, all the women commenting here, I guarantee you, could tell you whoppers about abuse. I bet you there’s not one that doesn’t have a story to tell. But they don’t because it has nothing to do with the issues at hand. Did you even read my piece of satire up there?

  90. Casey

    Okay, my friend who is here with me suggests, Ootz that you are saying that because you suffered abuse at the hands of girls in childhood, you can understand how it feels to be discriminated against as a woman. Furthermore you resent my didactic piece of satire up there. Well, respectfully, Ootz, I had a hard time with some girls too but that’s got nothing to do with anything and as a man you most certainly would not have been subject to the sort of structural discrimination faced by women from birth to death.

    Toni Morrison, the African American writer has pointed out that African American men got the vote in the late 1800s while women, white and black, only got in many years later. Her point being that racism will shift before sexism ever, ever will. So frankly, yes there are still things you can listen to Ootz that you couldn’t possibly have experienced – quite simply because you are a white guy. Sorry but that’s just the truth.

  91. Ootz

    Casey, honestly I would love to respond in more detail. need to go and have a rest, but quickly

    @85 it was on the saturday thread

    @86 there were comments which contained or referred to privelidge (of males)

    @87 probl a reflex and oover reaction re your “You will be diminished Ootz.” and previous description of why, you scratched me, my memory thereof.

    Perhaps I bit off more then I can handle atm. It is all good.

  92. Casey

    Alright then, I hope you feel better soon Ootz.

  93. Su

    It was Jacques de M who said we were trying to steer the metaphorical plane into the ground, because we are not just violent and vicious, we are terrorists, and apart from Pav throwing her hands up in disgust, I think the main response was to move away from that nonsense at a steady but rapid pace. The trouble with what I can glean of your philosophy ootz, is that it only has a response for gross and indeed criminal acts of bullying and threats of violence and therefore does nothing to change the underlying structural inquality, but I may be missing something.

  94. Casey

    Ah, I see Su – more misrepresentation. Good then, good. Groundhog etc etc.

  95. Terangeree

    …the underlying structural inquality, but I may be missing something.

    I think you’re missing an “e”. 🙂

  96. Su

    I am, T, I loathe these virtual keyboards, the a doesn’t work half the time and so it takes forever going back and reinstating them. So why I misspelled fey up there is beyond me, glutton for punishment which is just as well, because, yes, groundhog day, we are being told we’re bullies again, while the oh so lovely comment at 74 falls on fallow ground. Too depressing.

    Let’s talk about ErikLIAR instead, because no way a fanger can be virgo, seriously. I mean yes the unrestrained appetites, the subterranean desire and kink, but the MESS?!, the absence of napery at table, the absence of table at table! No way, I don’t care if he has the adorable little moue, the philtrum that lives up to its derivation. Not virgo, no way.

  97. FDB

    Structural inequality and vampires?

    I thought Buffy fixed all that.

  98. Brian

    I think I need to comment on the notion that there is an attempt to “steer the metaphorical plane into the ground” and also the point of my earlier references to the July archive.

    Jacques has his own perceptions, I’m not saying that at all. My reference was in response to Liz’s question, Where are all the posts … ?

    After 13 July which is when the stoush started, leaving aside open threads and roundtables, most of the original posts were written by me. I think there was one by Paul Norton (Is Lorde lesbian?), a guest post by John Davidson, arranged by me, two by Mark, and 11 by me.

    I said I had a concern, I can’t say more than that because the reasons people post or don’t post are multiple and not known to me.

    Apart from writing posts, I found myself in three roles: commenter, moderator and representative of the blog. On the evidence of what happened I certainly made a hash of things.

    Mark had a posting hiatus from 7 May to 21 July.

    What happens from here time will tell, but LP is a very different place in terms of the number, variety and depth of engagement of posters.

    That’s the way things are. To state the obvious things change in people’s lives in ways that can be unexpected. Let’s just say I didn’t find Jacques’ comment helpful in this context.

  99. Brian

    Casey @ 67 I think at this point I’ll take up the suggestion from Mindy that we let things be. I was advocating some stuff I believe in about anger, irrespective of gender, but the whole thing got mashed up.

    I’d just like to say that I accept that there is an underlying structural inequality. It’s a long time ago, but I don’t think I was aware of it until I was in my 20s in the 1960s. I grew up in a family of five with two brothers and two sisters, as the boy in the middle. We went to a one-teacher school. I recall boys and girls playing games together, such as hopscotch, rounders, what we called basket ball, ‘roaring forties’ and hide-and-seek. We trained in mixed-team ball games and creamed the competition at the district sports day, coached by our teacher who played netball for SA. I remember playing ‘houses’ with my sisters in the scrub behind the chook yard.

    Later when you ran into things like women not being able to get a loan from a bank to buy a unit, and married women having to resign from the public service, the structural problems were very obvious. Of course it went beyond that, but nothing prepared me for what I read in Joanna Bourke’s book What it means to be human. I’ll link to John Gray’s review, with the caution that he parts company with her over Derrida’s philosophical position, and it matters.

  100. Jacques de Molay

    It was Jacques de M who said we were trying to steer the metaphorical plane into the ground, because we are not just violent and vicious, we are terrorists, and apart from Pav throwing her hands up in disgust, I think the main response was to move away from that nonsense at a steady but rapid pace. The trouble with what I can glean of your philosophy ootz, is that it only has a response for gross and indeed criminal acts of bullying and threats of violence and therefore does nothing to change the underlying structural inquality, but I may be missing something.

    A hammer still looking for a nail.

    Brian’s up against the wall, Dr Tad’s up there, akn is up there, Graham Bell up there, now I’m up there! Soon there will be no one left.

  101. Su

    A little closer, now I’m a revolutionary, but just to be clear, pointing out that you were the source of that comment, and that nobody in fact used the “privilege” argument in response, because we thought it nonsense is not tantamount to shooting you. Nor am I shooting Brian, I am having an argument, but a civil argument and we are both clarifying our positions on various things, on some we are in agreement.

    Thanks Brian.

  102. Su

    And I didn’t address Graham at all, I characterized his views on feminism, after he had told us all where to go in no uncertain terms, as “being a porkchop”. That is hardly violent or even revolutionary, that is just typical of those wishy washy liberal feminists, constantly dividing the forces of progress into pork and nonpork products. If not humour, then despair, so I choose the former.

  103. Moz of Yaramulla

    Jacques de Molay:

    Soon there will be no one left.

    Your talent for satire is, sadly, underappreciated. But let the record show that I laughed at this.

  104. Helen

    John Gray of “Mars and Venus”? LOLsob.

  105. Casey
  106. Casey

    And this is Joanna Bourke


    I used Disremembering the Male in my PhD. It had some very valuable insight on war and masculinity. I am currently reading her historical overview on rape and I think that is very good also.

  107. Brian

    That’s the one, Casey. In spite of having been Professor of European Thought at the London School of Economics and Political Science I don’t think he gets fangled French philosophy.

  108. alfred venison

    oh hang it all now i’m confused, is it a big tent at larvadus prodeo, or is it a small tent? is it going to close again? would someone please answer the question why they thought rudd would be less right wing than gillard over refugees? i think tofu boy made a stab at it before his family reunion but iirc he addressed why rudd’s doing it but not why rudd doing it is better looking back than gillard doing it? is that it? will answering this get the bus off the badlands and back on to the left lane of the highway moving forward? -a.v.

  109. Casey

    Casey @ 67 I think at this point I’ll take up the suggestion from Mindy that we let things be.

    Sure, no worries, I will leave it here too, Brian. Thank you for your involvement in this discussion. I do want to point out, however, that the end of the term of the first female Prime Minister, which concluded with this statement:

    “I do want to say the reaction to being the first female prime minister does not explain everything about my time in the prime ministership, nor does it explain nothing about my prime ministership,”

    deserved a post here in and of itself. The fact there was not one is very poignant to me, given this place was once very concerned to explore feminist issues and and its bloggers all supported and/or identified with feminist principles.

  110. Brian

    Yes, Casey, that did deserve a post, but it’s not my natural territory. ‘Normally’ Kim would have done it, but she last posted on 8 April on Simon Sheikh and ACT Greens leaked email. Mark was in Rome or Prague or somewhere and no-one else volunteered a post. Nothing to say, just the way it was.

    I wanted to do a post on the whole scenario of what happened to Gillard, but I needed to read Kerrie-Anne Walsh’s book first, which I now have, but haven’t read. I think a critical event was the shit thrown by Julie Bishop about the AWU affair. Somewhere I’ve got a link to a witness report of a day in parliament that described Gillard resurgent and coming back in the opinion polls. That was late October, before Bishop went to work. Abbott clearly has a strategy of looking calm and may I say ‘paternal’, a safe pair of hands, while he gets others to do his dirty work. It looks like a planned strategy.

    One recent manifestation was a comment by Bishop after the Leigh Sales interview with Rudd, saying she was worried about Rudd’s mental health. Would you believe within hours Turnbull was expressing the same worries.

    A post I actually started but didn’t complete, partly because I was blogless, was on Gillard’s misogyny speech which I much admired, and would still like to say something about in relation to Roger Jones’ comment on turning anger into fierceness. Roger has thought more about communication strategy than any of us, I think, and that in relation to science in a strongly ideological context.